Re: Shariah march in UK
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These "random nutjobs" are placing Pakistan at the risk of disintegration, took over Afghanistan in the 90's, rule Iran, and so on.
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An Islamist in Iran is not the same as an Islamist from Pakistan. If anything, Islamists in Pakistan (who are mainly Wahabi/Deobandi to begin with) bash Iran on a regular basis.
Re: Shariah march in UK
^its the likes of John McCain who do not know, or pretend to not know, the difference b/w Iranian backed movements (Hamas, Hezbollah, Qoat alBadr etc) and the other various Wahabi ideology inspired groups (Al Qaeda, Taliban, Lashkar Jhangvi etc) that r active out there.......there is a huge difference between the two....and like u rightly said, Wahabhis consider Shia a bigger enemy then the Western "Kuffar" and the other "infidels".......
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You did not require books, organizations, political parties, policies, armed groups in your definition of 'global ideology'.
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Here is the definition of "ideology":
2 a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program
Ideologies do not exist in vacuums. They are invented, refined, disseminated among the populace, and then seek to win power. These cannot be done by someone on his own.
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Tell me where the line is between religion and ideology
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Walk into any college or university. The religion/philosophy department is always separate from the political science department. There is a clear difference between the two. For one, religion is primarily internally focused on an individual's beliefs and practices whereas political ideologies are concerned with societies and nations as a whole.
I italicized "is", not political.
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Haha... tens of millions around the world support this individual?
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At minimum there are that many Islamists...
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"significant" number of UK Muslims. Such weasel words,
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40-53% support for implementation of shariah based on public polling. That is "significant", no?
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There is also little in common between those fighting in Afghanistan/Pakistan and Iran. They wont stay in the same room together. Is it the same ideology?
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Neither would the Soviets and Chinese. Does that mean they were both not Communist?
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A feminist could just as well replace 'males' in your paragraph and be equally accurate. "Males" are protesting in the UK, "males" have taken over Afghanistan in the 90s, "males" have taken over Pakistan. Similarly for "Asians" and "Browns" and "Adults"
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There is no "male", "female", "Asian", "brown", or "adult" ideology. Feminism exists in all corners of the world but it, like environmentalism, is a political movement concerned with a particular issue. Ideologies deal with all major issues in a country.
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so yes Communism, Buddhism, Shinto, Small-goverment conservatism, Christianity, Scientology and Islamism (whatever that is) are probably global ideologies as defined by you.
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What is your definition of an ideology? For the fourth time, do you believe Communism was/is a global ideology?
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An Islamist in Iran is not the same as an Islamist from Pakistan. If anything, Islamists in Pakistan (who are mainly Wahabi/Deobandi to begin with) bash Iran on a regular basis.
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Sure, just as Khruschev was not the same as Mao or Castro today is not the same as Hu Jintao. Yet they all fell under the basic Communist ideology. Of course there are always going to be local differences among an ideology. Are social democrats in Britain the same as their counterparts in Sweden or Pakistan?
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between Iranian revolution inspired movements and the other various Wahabi ideology inspired activities that r taking place in the world.......there is a huge difference between the two....and like u say, Wahabhis consider Shia a bigger enemy then the Western "Kuffar" and the other "infidels".....
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Just like Moscow hated Beijing and vice versa. Both considered themselves the "true" incarnation of Communism and sought to be the leaders of international Communism.
As to them viewing Shia a bigger enemy than Westerners, perhaps in theory but not in practice. Do you see them blowing up bazaars in Shiraz or flying planes into Tehran?
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^its the likes of John McCain who do not know, or pretend to not know, the difference b/w Iranian backed movements (Hamas, Hezbollah, Qoat alBadr etc)
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Hamas is an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. It received plenty of funding from Saudi Arabia too until 9/11. Hezbollah is a Shia baby of Iran's Khomenists but Hamas is not. The Hamas Salafist alliance with Iranian Khomenists is a marriage of convenience. Is this surprising? Hamas is also allied with Baathist secularists in Syria and the Salafists themselves allied with America when they needed it to fight a another "kafir" in the 80's. International relations makes for some strange alliances.
Sure, just as Khruschev was not the same as Mao or Castro today is not the same as Hu Jintao. Yet they all fell under the basic Communist ideology. Of course there are always going to be local differences among an ideology. Are social democrats in Britain the same as their counterparts in Sweden or Pakistan?
Just like Moscow hated Beijing and vice versa. Both considered themselves the "true" incarnation of Communism and sought to be the leaders of international Communism.
As to them viewing Shia a bigger enemy than Westerners, perhaps in theory but not in practice. Do you see them blowing up bazaars in Shiraz or flying planes into Tehran?
Hamas is an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. It received plenty of funding from Saudi Arabia too until 9/11. Hezbollah is a Shia baby of Iran's Khomenists but Hamas is not. The Hamas Salafist alliance with Iranian Khomenists is a marriage of convenience. Is this surprising? Hamas is also allied with Baathist secularists in Syria and the Salafists themselves allied with America when they needed it to fight a another "kafir" in the 80's. International relations makes for some strange alliances.
I disagree as I see a marked difference between the two ideologies. Doctrinally for Shias, going on an offensive against anybody is a big NONO.....whereas for Wahabhism inspired movements, its like an obligation to go and fight the kuffar......offensive Jihad was the base of the movement of Abdul Wahab.....
well, they hate Shias both in theory and practice.......its just that their "Jihad" against the shias is of different nature......from their famous attacks in 1801 on Najaf and Karbala in the early days of Wahabhis, most recently they have mostly used suicide bombings against the Shia mosques and neighborhoods......if you look at the numbers then u will see tht wahabhis hve killed far more Shias than the Westerners......infact it can be argued tht the biggest threat that the Wahabhis sense comes from non other than the politically active Shiism.......
Hamas actually was a baby of none other than Israel.....Israel helped establish Hamas to counter Arafat's Fatah movement......Hamas grew strong under Sheikh Ismael and ended up showing their back to Israel and has since changed many camps and most recently after getting tired of the games played by the hypocrite Saudi monarchs, they have in past few yrs of so shifted themselves away from Sauds and closer to the Lebanese Hezbollah and Iran....rightly so because, in my view, anything that comes close to the destructive ideology called Wahabhism will end up suffering destruction itself......hum tou dobein gay sanam tum ko bhi lay dobein gay....
Here is the definition of "ideology":
2 a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program
Ideologies do not exist in vacuums. They are invented, refined, disseminated among the populace, and then seek to win power. These cannot be done by someone on his own.
Walk into any college or university. The religion/philosophy department is always separate from the political science department. There is a clear difference between the two. For one, religion is primarily internally focused on an individual's beliefs and practices whereas political ideologies are concerned with societies and nations as a whole.
I italicized "is", not political.
The whole purpose of this exercise is to establish what you mean by ideology. I can look it up in a dictionary however that doesnt help me when talking to someone who anthropromorphises 'ideology'. You seem to suggest the difference is that ideologies are supposed to be political. Is that correct? Since the definitions you posted would fit any major religion of the world.
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At minimum there are that many Islamists...
40-53% support for implementation of shariah based on public polling. That is "significant", no?
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You claim that Islamists back this individual, and the 40-50% back this individual. That is completely unfounded. I wager the individual would struggle to muster up 100 acquaintances let alone be a global player in a planetwide game.
40% of Muslims in the UK have not to my knowledge wanted to impose shariah law over UK and convert trafalgar square to a wuzu center. Polls usually have been with reference to shariah facilities being provided in parts of Britain where there is a significant population of Muslims, similar to Jewish courts, a move that the Archbishop of Canterbury has backed. Hardly a very radical position. It is unfounded to regard that as evidence of support for this individual.
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Neither would the Soviets and Chinese. Does that mean they were both not Communist?
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You lack specificity in everything. One "islamist"/Muslim/Communist is the same as every "Islamist"/Muslim/Communist in the world. Soviets and Chinese would both trace their ideologies to Marx, but had important figures that dramatically changed their ideologies thereafter (Lenin/Stalin/Mao). Each "Islamist" that you lump together with every random Muslim who happens to believe whatever he believes may have dramatically different views about very important things. But they're all the same to you.
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There is no "male", "female", "Asian", "brown", or "adult" ideology. Feminism exists in all corners of the world but it, like environmentalism, is a political movement concerned with a particular issue. Ideologies deal with all major issues in a country.
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Fact that there is no "male" "female" "asian" "brown" or "adult" ideology doesnt matter. Each of these categories can be motivations for behaviour in a certain way. You blame Islam for the behaviour of a small group of people, and link anyone sharing some of the background to the terrorists. This lack of specificity for such a large group of people is extremely obtuse reasoning. 1/5th of the world is Muslim, lets say 1/2 of the world is male. Feminists can (and have) argued along the lines as you.
There are good arguments to be made on the issue of religious extremism and attitudes towards violence. You arent making them on this thread.
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What is your definition of an ideology? For the fourth time, do you believe Communism was/is a global ideology?
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I'll go with the first of what you posted. This would include religions. Yes communism was an ideology, and as per your definition, a global ideology. Since you have asked the question four times, let me ask you, what is the point?
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Sure, just as Khruschev was not the same as Mao or Castro today is not the same as Hu Jintao. Yet they all fell under the basic Communist ideology.
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If people were being reductive, yes.
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Of course there are always going to be local differences among an ideology. Are social democrats in Britain the same as their counterparts in Sweden or Pakistan?
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Effectively anyone who shares any beliefs with anyone else is under the same ideology. Fine. I'll work with the broad brush.
Would the actions of a social democrats in Pakistan have the backing of social democrats in Britain? Social democrats in south america have recently been pretty violent. Should social democrats in the UK be viewed with suspicion?
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As to them viewing Shia a bigger enemy than Westerners, perhaps in theory but not in practice. Do you see them blowing up bazaars in Shiraz or flying planes into Tehran?
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BS. There has been a lot more shia-sunni/sunni-sunni violence than there has been violence against westerners.
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Hamas is an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. It received plenty of funding from Saudi Arabia too until 9/11. Hezbollah is a Shia baby of Iran's Khomenists but Hamas is not. The Hamas Salafist alliance with Iranian Khomenists is a marriage of convenience.
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Absolutely. And similar marriages of convenience have spanned religious/ideological boundaries in that region. Whether it is support for Christian militia in Lebanon (Iran), support for secular militia like Jondollah (Saudi arab/US), it is all about local motivations than some cogent connected global organism, where one person photoshopping trafalgar square is equated with, and has the backing of anyone who has a beard in Iran and Afghanistan.
Re: Shariah march in UK
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As to them viewing Shia a bigger enemy than Westerners, perhaps in theory but not in practice. Do you see them blowing up bazaars in Shiraz or flying planes into Tehran?
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Dude no offense but you really are clueless. Go to Parachinar and see how the Taliban has ruthlessly treated the Shi'a population over there. Last year Shi'a truckdrivers were being rounded up and beheaded! Not only that, tens of thousands of Shi'a Hazaras were slaughtered by the Taliban under their rule, simply because they were Shi'a. In Lebanon, the Sunni Islamists in Tripoli often bash on Hizbollah on a regular basis.
Sorry dude but Sunni Islamists who are allied with al-Qaeda and the Taliban do not hold favourable views of Shi'as. You should make a visit to IslamicAwakening to see for yourself.
P.S. There was a suicide bombing of a mosque in Shiraz last year. Iranian Sunnis in Sistan-Baluchistan have a bone to pick with the Iranian government. al-Qaeda themselves even cursed Iran for its participation in Afghanistan and helping the US overthrow both the Taliban and Saddam Hussein.
Re: Shariah march in UK
^Sunni is such a large and loose term and Wahabhis have taken an advantage of it......they have worked at large during the last three decades or so to spread their doctrines under the titles that were once known for the Ahlul Sunnat......they have corrupted classic sunni doctrines to an extent that now one seriously struggles to find a Sunni with a classic sunni beliefs......its hard to find a Sunni mosque specially in the Western countries where the saudi network of mosques and preachers have a very strong hold over almost all the major Islamic centers.......
Re: Shariah march in UK
so everyone who was jumping up and down about this little thug band of jackasses holding an idiotic rally, does anyone know what happened to the rally.
read this to get an idea of what happened.
and that stupid idiot anjem choudry, now he is talking smack about something else. He is a lot like his mentor and guide Omar Bakri. Omar bakri was all about put all women in burqa and and what nots and later finds out his daughter is an exotic dancer..
this anjem choudry has a lot of crap to spew now, but who is he really…read it.
no wonder they find porn in the hideouts of taleban types in the tribal area…these genre of guys are something else..
and these types are the heroes of the jackasses among us..i dont know if it is funny as hell or sad as hell..pathetic for sure..