Sharia Sentance for Pregnant Teenager

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Amal,

Your question #1:
"If you guys want to make it a point that Quran covers only the 7th century, than this will definitely accompany another question - what about Islam itself?

MY ANSWER:
Quran was revealed in the likeness of the 7th century so the people of the 7th century can relate to it!

But, is it timeless?

Not, the way it is practised. Islam is frozen in the 7th century.

Islam, today is based on the 7th century Sunnah of the Prophet. The Islamic laws are also based on the Prophet's Sunnat. Is the Prophet sunnah timeless and for all ages?

You mentioned about the "BASICS OF ISLAM" ! Let's take a couple of examples: Salah/Prayers & Zakat - these are amongst the Basics of Islam.

Now, show me where in the Quran does it say that the Salah should be with so many rakats, facing Mecca, as done today?

Then, pls show me where in the quran does it say the zakat should be 2.5%?

Your point #2"
You mentioned Ijthehad which "allows Muslims to sit and find out a way which is more acceptable to the followers."

My ANSWER:
To find "acceptable ways" -- Isn't that same as "re-interpretation" of the existing laws?

Ijthehad requires Ijmat or complete consensus. Can you find me an alim willing to be a part of ijmat that will re-interpret laws that are based on the Prophet's Sunnah.

Your point #3:
"Islam and Quran are ageless - made for all ages"

MY ANSWER:
Quran was revealed to be ageless & timeless. To be ageless & timeless requires flexibility not rigidity.

22

Logical: Can you define flexibility?

Is it similar to the flexibility that a version of the bible was written to make it more politically correct? References to men was changed to be genderless and being gay or lesbian was made acceptable.

I agree that you have to look at Islam with 21st Century eyes, but the only things you can be flexible on, are the things which are not explicitly stated.

You mentioned about praying. Quran doesn't say how to pray, thats why we can look at the way the prophet prayed. There is flexibility here as it was not explicitly stated in the Quran.

But as far as lashes go, they WERE mentioned in the quran...

I don't actually know how hard the lashes are!

23

Cool

We R not talking about changing Quran!Period!! People keep jumping to wrong conclusions.

It's all about interpretations! It's how we choose to see the meanings of the verse. The only way one can claim that Islam is for all ages is by applying evolving interpretations keeping the Basics of Islam intact!

How flexible we R is to be decided as per Ijma or Ijmat - one of the requisite of FIQH or Islamic Jurisprudence.

The reason I mentioned Prayers/Salah is that our interpretations (PEOPLE NOTE)of salah is based NOT on the quran but on how the prophet used to pray. Even then, there are 300 differences in salah alone amongst the 4 taqlids.

About Zakat - since quran doesn't mention 2.5% - is there any reason why we cannot, at some, point raise that to 7%(RE-INTERPRETATION) so the monies can be channeled towards poverty alleviation amongst muslims.

24

Cooldude,

With 180 lashes most likely the girl in question will die. This is an inhumane punishment by any standards. What you are saying is that muslims should follow Koran without questioning it, even if it means death of a person. To error is human...what she did is a social problem, not a criminal one, society and her family should deal with it..she doesn't deserve a inhumane criminal punishment.

25

That is truely very depressing to see some folks saying that Islam is a religion "frozen in the 7th century." Islam is a global and universal religion. From day one, all of the messengers from Hazrat Adam (PBUH) to Hazrat Muhammad SAW have been carrying only one message. Message of the One ness of Allah. Over a passage of time, the followers of some of these prophets people have changed religion to fit their ease and suit them. That is exactly what Christians and Jews did, when they changed the initial messages of the Bible and the Torah. But the message which Allah sent has been the same from day one. And this time for individuals who are going to make an attempt towards making Islam "flexible," may I remind those of you, that Allah has taken the responsibility on Himself to guard Quran and Kaa'ba.

Secondly, Cooldude the ayah you have quoted is 100% correct. The punishment for premarital sex is 100 or more lashes. And if it's a male he should be banished from the Islamic country on top of the 100 or more lashes. And for married folks who engage in premarital sex, the punishment is that they should be stoned to death.

Posted by Logical:

Quran was revealed in the likeness of the 7th century so the people of the 7th century can relate to it!

No. Quran applies to people of all times until the day of judgement. Allah knows past, present and future. He knew the questions that would arise in the years to come after Prophet Muhammad SAW, and all those questions have been addressed in the Quran and Sunnah. To believe that Islam is only suited for the 7th century is a grave mistake.

Posted by Logical
Not, the way it is practised. Islam is frozen in the 7th century.

The only reason it seems frozen to you is because of the fact that some of the punishments are really severe punishments. And not just goofing around. Then again, Allah tells us the consequence of every action we make, therefore, if one decides to go astray knowing the difference between right and wrong, then one should be able to face the consequences as well.

Posted by Logical:

Now, show me where in the Quran does it say that the Salah should be with so many rakats, facing Mecca, as done today?

A lot of things come from Sunnah as well. That's why muslims are expected to follow BOTH Quran and Sunnah.

Posted by Logical:
Ijthehad requires Ijmat or complete consensus. Can you find me an alim willing to be a part of ijmat that will re-interpret laws that are based on the Prophet's Sunnah.

Ijtihad is NOT re interpreting the Quran and Sunnah. There is no such thing as "re-interpreting." The only interpretation which stands is the one Allah gave us and His Prophet SAW.

Ijtihad is when one can not find the solution to a problem, a group of muslims who have valid knowledge of deen sit down and try to figure out the solution from the light of Quran and Sunnah. I repeat it's NOT a "re-interpretation" of any sort.

Posted by Logical:

Quran was revealed to be ageless & timeless. To be ageless & timeless requires flexibility not rigidity.

Quran is a deen of nature. It fits Human nature. Allah does not put more burden on us than we can handle. There is enough flexibility as it is. Knowing the difference between right and wrong, if one still decides to let Shaitan misguide them, then one should be ready to face the consequences. There is no such thing in Islam as "spur of the moment." All of us know and have been taught the difference between right and wrong thru Quran and sunnah.

26

Rare,

What you have laid out in your response of September 14, 2000 01:14 PM is that:
Islam is to be practised as was in the 7th century and for all eternity!

It appears to be the case when you said the following:

"Ijtihad is NOT re interpreting the Quran and Sunnah. There is no such thing as "re-interpreting. The only interpretation which stands is the one Allah gave us and His Prophet SAW."

RARE - which interpretation did Allah gave us?
You R referring to the Prophet's Sunnah, are you not?
Prophet's sunnah, regardless of whether he asked it to be written down or followed, is of the 7th century.
So, if the Sunnah is the interpretations of the Quran that you speak about and, further claim that there is no such thing as "re-interpretations" then, all interpretations are based on the 7th century sunnah of the prophet!
Yes or No?

Again, you are being the Enforcer when you say this:

"....a male he should be banished from the Islamic country on top of the 100 or more lashes. And for married folks who engage in premarital sex, the punishment is that they should be stoned to death."

RareDiamond,
Pls show me the aya about stoning in the quran? PLEASE!

Pls allow me to make this clear: There is nothing wrong in following the 'ways' of the prophet(saw); the ways of the prophet are a resource, guide & a blessing and should be viewed as such. However, we chose to make Islam as per the sunnah and that makes it equal to following Islam as per 7th century. This is Clear as the Day is Clear and we should be able to accept this!

Mariah had a question about shariah laws:
RARE- Do you believe the shariah laws were wriiten by man or are they directly & verbatim from the Quran?

These shariah laws are nothing short of interpretations [PEOPLE - NOTE]of some men theologians and most are based on the prophet's sunnat! Why is this so difficult to accept?

If Quran applies to all times then why are we frozen in the 7th century?
Not just the capital punishments; all islam points to 7th century - how we dress, women's place in society, education, charity, marital laws, business transactions, etc.

[This message has been edited by logical (edited September 14, 2000).]

27

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Cooldude,

With 180 lashes most likely the girl in question will die. This is an inhumane punishment by any standards. What you are saying is that muslims should follow Koran without questioning it, even if it means death of a person. To error is human...what she did is a social problem, not a criminal one, society and her family should deal with it..she doesn't deserve a inhumane criminal punishment.**
[/quote]

Do you question your mother when she asks you to eat the food that she have placed right front of you?
Do you ask why should I eat this? Is there poison in it? Why are you giving it to me with such care? Are you trying to trick me into something?

Now all that doesn’t make sense for you huh? Well questioning Koran doesn’t make sense either. You got my point?

Social problem not a criminal one?

You're just saying that cuz you are influenced by the ways and laws of the west. It just shows that how short minded you are. Think about it, if no one had known about this girl being pregnant, this baby would have probably ended up in a gutter. If the baby had been ended up in the gutter, the possibility is that it would have died (I think that’s a criminal act). If not then the baby would have been grown up to be a gangster or a drug dealer and would have caused destruction in someway, (Forget about the mental damage it would cause to this child) again something to do with crime. Islam doesn’t only teach us how we should be prepared for today but also tomorrow. Islam teaches us not only to care for the short-term but prepares us for the long-term effects also (That just ends all this crap about Islam being frozen in the 7century). Now you might say that this is BS, but if you look around you, 90% of the children with out fathers have turned out to be like the way I have stated.

Society and family should deal with the problem?

The fact is that society and families don’t know how to deal with this problem at all. If they did know how, people like Jerry Spring, Jenny Jones and Ricky Lake would have ended up on streets.

You know most of me, but not all of me
Things that I have done are not suppose to be
I'm a sinner of my sins
A prisoner of my prisons
Will someone care to cry for me
If not, then you must see
That I ask not to die for me
I just want to know
If I die will you cry for me

[This message has been edited by yOuNgBrAt (edited September 14, 2000).]

28

Hey all you who dont like islam:
Would you want your sister or daughter who is not married to get pregnant in teen-age years?

Yasin, you said its unhumane! Why? Do you approve of girls who are 13-18 getting pregnant and uploading kids by guys who they are not married with or dont know?

~~~mOrE LoVe iS NeVeR eNoUgH~~~
Jaan-e-mun Jaan-e-Tamanaa
Edharr aah teriyaaN LaatTaanN PunNaa-n

29

Here … Logical is not being very logical… illogical

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ahaa.gif

…isn’t he ?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

I’d rather be RiCh than sTuPiD.

30

If this girl has sinned, the punishment for her sin should be dealt with by Allah in the hereafter not us. Pakistan isn't an Islamic country, there is very little in Pakistan that reflects the type of government that could be considered Islamic. The laws are quazi-Islamic, quazi-colonial-British.

Personally I don't believe beating people, in particular teenage girls is the best way to solve our problems. A 17 year old pregnant girl is I'm sure fragile and weak, beating her is a terrible punishment. Its not even a good deterrent for others who are following a similar path. I don't have time to research, but I'm sure if you did you can find something in the Quran/Hadith, that conflicts with this type of punishment.

In terms of income/class, I wonder if this girl comes from a lower class and doesn't have the means to represent herself in a court of law. Stories like this also worry me, because they are sensationalized and give Islam a bad name around the world. Islam advocates love and compassion, these are two qualities used to describe Allah, along with mercy. So where is our mercy, when it comes to young teenage pregnant women? We choose to beat them for mistakes they make rather than forgive them!?

Also I was wondering if the father of the child is going to be lashed? And if lashes are ever actually carried out in Pakistan? I know alot of punishments are on the books, but they never actually get carried out.

Achtung

31

I'm Muslim, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

32

In another thread the discussion turned out to be that if a muslim man committs a crime(rape,murder etc) and is not punished it is ok because Allah is watching it all and he will be punished severely in the here-after. What that rule does not apply to this girl?

33

To Achtung,
Good to have you back again! We're talking about Rural Nigeria and the girl (17), in a long term multiple relationship was able to name the three farmers as possible father to her child but couldn't provide eye witnesses to the sexual relationship; bottom line, without witnesses - she was deemed a liar and given 80 more lashes on top of the 100.
No punishments for the men!

Chan Mahi,
Islamic laws, written by men, are clearly tilted against women but don't mention this to any muslim women who will tell you that these laws are of Allah when in fact the males have craftily kept the women inferior.

Incidentally, you will notice the biggest supporters in keeping the status quo or women inferior are women themselves!

Digital,
No problemo !

[This message has been edited by logical (edited September 14, 2000).]

34

Well logical i can tell u several ayats where it is written that face mecca when u odffre prayers cause it was an ayat revealed to the PROPHET when the change of qibla was observed as muslims used to face masjid al-aqsa first., AND AS FAR AS THE POINT THAT ISLAM IS 7TH CENTURY RELIGION U ARE WRONG!!!!!ALLAH KNOWS BETTER THEN US HE WOULDN'T HAVE REVESALS A BOOK IF WE HAD TO LEAD LIVES IN DIFERENT AGES ACCORDING TO OUR OWN RULES! ISLAM IS BASED ON THE TEACHINGS OF THE QURAN AND ALL SHARIAH IS FROM THE QURAN!

35

I think they should do a DNA test on the baby and then punish the father as well. Both should be punished according to the Quran - I believe this is fair.

Now, Quran also says “eye for an eye”. If a person commits murder then he deserves to be killed (according to quran). However, if the deceased family pardon him then he can be spared as well.

I believe that Allah is just.

Logical: I don’t believe that Islam is stuck in the 7th century. If you care to start a new post then I would love to discuss.

CoolDude

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/cool.gif

36

masi,

Pls quote the ayats that says: point to mecca when praying. Pls quote surah & aya number when doing! Based on what you say: Allah only resides in Mecca; previously, He was at Al-Quds(Jerusalem) then moved to Mecca! Interesting comments - typical 7th century mentality!

You say: "All Shariah is from the Quran"

1) Let's start by you showing me the aya about rajm or stoning to death? As we know rajm is a valid sharia law. Is it in the quran?

I'll save you the trouble; it is NOT in the quran. This rajm sharia law is based on the Prophet's sunnah!

2) Next, show me where in the quran does it say that zakat should be 2.5%? The sharia law says it should be 2.5%. The quran does not say - how much (%) should be payable as zakat!

Previously, I made a suggestion that Zakat is one of the Basic of Islam(Pillar)and since, how much should be paid is not stipulated in the quran; we could increase the zakat from 2.5% to 7% as "a Re-interpretation of this basic pillar of Islam" to raise funds that can be spent, for example, towards poverty alleviation, education, etc. Would this 'Re-interpretation' be against Islam?

RE: Islam is FOREVER:
Masi, the quran was revealed in the 7th century and was, first & foremost, intended for the people of the 7th century.

If the quran was revealed in the language of the 30th century for the people of the 7th century arabia - they would have called the prophet a 'mad man' and chased him out of arabia.

Quran itself says that most of it[quran] is in parables, similitude & likeness; most of the language are or cannot be discernible/understood by the common man, meaning, the verses are subject to interpretations.

You may chose to follow the verse in its 'literalist' sense or 'word for word'; in which case you will continue to be directed to the similitude/likeness of the 7th century. The way a verse of quran can be made 'timeless' is in the way we choose to interpret it!

Quran for all Eternity:
It is meant to be but are we using the quran as a message & guidance for all eternity?

or,

are we using the prophet's way to base Islam?

You say - all shariah laws are from quran; the above questions that I ask will show that they [sharia laws]are from the prophet's sunnah and were written by male theologians.

Don't you think they-the sharia laws would have been written different if there were women theologians as part of the team writing the shariah laws?

Nothing wrong in emulating the greatest prophet(SAW) but his ways are a resource, blessings & a guide and should be revered as such. Instead, they - the 7th century 'ways' of the prophet have been made into the meanings of the quran, basis of shariat and, consequently forever.

If this is what you mean by Islam being timeless and for all eternity then, surely you jest!

37

Logical: Very logical views there!

With Ref to your questions:

1} Are you referring to stoning in generally or stoning for fornication? (sex before marraige)

2} Quran mentions you should give zakat.
Refer to the Prophets Sunnah for how much.

Could I ask you a couple of questions Logical?

1) Are you a muslim?

2) What would your methodology be to the way Islam should be implemented today?

3) How would you deal with this topic, i.e. what is a fair way according to your methodology of Islam?

By the way, what happened to Muslim786?

38

Listen logical u can read Surah Al-Nisa in which all laws of marriage,divorce and whtever u are asking for those lasjhes etc are written. NO.2 as far as the qibla is concerend i don’t know the ayat no. i will check it out and tell u but it was reveald to the PROPHET when he migrated to madina. ALLAH is our CREATOR HE is the one who knows our future if he would have sent the book according to the 7th Century then HE would have told us to write a book ourselves rather than chnging HIS book in evevry century. bcoz if we were to change it then evryone would omit the punishements and be following wht they think is write QURAN if u follow it moulds each and evry aspect of our live it tells us how to eat drink and tells us even the minutset of all things. U TALK ABT SUNNAH i don’t think that u know that SUNNAH is actually an elaboration of the teachings of the QURAN bcoz whtever the PROPHET taught was in the QURAN he only taught us and nothing else if u ever read the explanation of the QURAN then u will undersatnd that whtever the PROPHET has assigned for zakat it is in the QURAN. As far as NAMAZ OR SALAT is concerend the no. of rakat which are FARZ that is compulsory were revealed by ALLAH it wasn’t decided by the PROPHET the Sunnat rakats and the NAFAL rakats were decided by the PROPHET and they are not compulsory even if u don’t offer them than there is no sin but if u do then u get extra rewards.
So Mr.Logical as far as ur views are concerend i don’t think u are a muslim and kindly if u are not then do not pose ur views in such a harsh manner our religion doesn’t allow us to abuse other religions kindly pls observe the same.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

thanku i hope i have cleared out ur problem but if u still have any queries do ask.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

39

[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
**
Masi, the quran was revealed in the 7th century and was, first & foremost, intended for the people of the 7th century. **
[/quote]

is there any proof for that, i mean intended for the 7th century? if a revelation was only sent for the 7th century, then wouldn't God have sent more messengers to us to explain the book. If Prophet(sallalahu alahi wasallam) was sent only for interpretation in the 7th century then what about us?

40

“If Prophet(sallalahu alahi wasallam) was sent only for interpretation in the 7th century then what about us?”
i completely agree with u

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

u are absolutely right and also in the QURAN it is written that this book is for all mankind and till eternity i don’t know the ayat no. but maybe u could ask from someone more learned.