SHAITAN-------IBLEES

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Aslamoalaikum,
A Spiritual Scholar of Pkistan ( Syed Sarfraz Shah writes in Is book FAQIR NAGRI—Page 194that " Shaitan Was SRDAR (LEADER of Angels). I do not understnd how he can justify his statement. According my study Iblees was JIN and not ANGEL.
I shall be grateful if some one can explain the intention of the writer. ( To me JIN has IKHTIAR where Agels haven’t?
Lahori

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Iblees was made of fire so he was a JIN...Farishte are made of noor [light]. Iblees was a very pious Jin so he was called up to the 'arsh and he was the teacher of angels.

the rest is history.

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To be able to answer questions about deen of islam one has to know the quran properly and one cannot know the quran properly till one has reasonable grasp over idea of origin of language, how it got its concepts therefore meanings. It is because the quran was revealed in a particular human language at a particular time in written form as well as in form of a reading.

No mullah has any idea about the origin of language, its development and progress and the relevant implications. This is why almost all translations of the quran are mostly defective because they do not take into account the contexts of the quranic text. Who can say anything for certain about anything if one has no idea what human language itself is?

If anyone wants to make sense of the quranic text one has to look for information outside the box in which mullahs have put this ummah for a very long time now.

1)Which mullah do you need to go to for studying origin of language? All you need to do is learn any facts about any language from any people who are expert in knowing and teaching those facts about a language and they do not even have to be muslims. In fact they can be atheists.

2)Which mullah do you need to go to, to learn about realities of real world? All you need to do is go to people who observe real word realities and explore and carry out research works therefore discover things and inform people about them.

3)It is a matter of fact that one cannot understand the quran unless one knows facts about the human language and the language used for the quran by Allah. Because it gives us foundational context of the quranic text. It is due to having proper sense of human language that we are able to make sense of realities of our universe in which we are born. It is then that these realities of real world give us secondary foundational context to see what the message of the quran may be. If we do not know things about language or real world realities then we have no way of knowing what words are and what they actually mean. This is why the quran puts emphasis on using our God given brains, senses, bodies and provided things including his revelation properly, otherwise people are nothing more than animals. In fact God himself labels them worse of all the animals.

4)Only if one has sense of these contexts the context of the quranic text within itself becomes important not otherwise. Once we have the understanding of the quranic text in these context only then we have the context for things attributed to the messenger of Allah as criterion to see if they are true or false. Once we have all these things properly in their proper contexts we can see what people attributed to people is true or false because then we have the solid criterion to judge things by.

All this explanation shows that one does not need any mullah to explain anything at all because learning and doing things is common heritage of humanity. We can learn anything from anyone who knows it. However whatever we learn we have a duty to pass it on to others for ensuring well being of mankind.

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Peace Mughal1

You didn't answer the question.

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azeezam lahori sb, asal deene islam to wohee hai jo quran ki abaarat main mojood hai magar us abaarat ko samajhne waale abhi duniya main behot kam log hen. in ki tadaad irtqayee lihaaz se badhti rahe gi magar yeh aik sust raftaar amal hai. agar is kaam ko inqalaabi tareeq par chalaaya jaaye jo yeh kaam jaldi bhi ho sakta hai. yani log khud bhi woh taleem haasil karen jo quran ko samajhne ke liye laazmi hai aur doosrun ki bhi is baare main bharpoor madad karen. yun samjhen jitne ziyaada log is baat par saheeh tarah se tawajo den ge kaam utni hi jaldi ho ga.

quran ko samajhne ke liye bunyaadi baat zabaan se mutalqa maloomaaat ka hona az bas laazmi hai keh yeh kaise wajood main ayee aur kaise irtqaa pazeer hui. yeh is liye laazmi hai kyunkeh yeh ham ko bataati hai is main ilfaaz kahaan se aaye aur un ko jo maani diye ge woh kaise wajood main aaye.

jab bacha peda hota hai to ilfaaz main baaten nahin karte balkeh chup chaap har shai ko apne hawaas ke zariye apne andar samoota jaata hai. aik waqt aata hai woh jo kuchh apne dimaagh main jama paata hai us ko doosrun ko bataana chahta hai. aik arse ke baad woh itna jaan leta hai keh woh jo jo awaaz nikaalta hai us ka log kuchh na kuchh matlab lete hen. jab woh dekhta hai keh aik awaaz jab woh baar baar nikaalta hai to logoon ka us par aik hi raade amal hota hai to yun woh jaan leta hai us ke ishaare aur awaazen deegar logoon ko mutaasir karti hen. woh in se kaam lena shuroo kar deta hai. logoon ko mazeed dekhta hai keh woh aik doosre ke ishaarun par yaa awaazun par kaisa radde amal zahir karte hen to isi liye woh bhi jab logoon ka waisa hi radde amal chahta hai to wohee ishaare karta hai yaa awaazen nikaalta hai. yun aahista aahista bacha wohee zabaan bolna shuroo kar deta hai jo deegar log us ke ird gird bolte hen. isi baat ko insaan ki ibtadaa ki taraf le jaayen keh insaan ne zabaan ijaad kaise ki. insaan ilfaaz kaise wajood main laaya aur un ko us ne kin kin tasawuraat se taabeer kiya aur kia kia maani apnaaye waghera waghera.

baat yaheen par khatam nahin hoti balkeh aage chal kar yeh bhi maloom ho jaata hai keh khudaa ne quran ke nazool ke liye arbi zubaan ka intkhaab hi kyun kiya. is liye keh arbi ke siwaa puraani tamaam zabaane jo lafzun par nahin maadun par mabni thin dam tod rahee thin maslan hebrew waghera. insaan jab se duniya main aaye zabaanu ko taraqi dete rehe aur yun zabaanen badalti chali gayeen. arbi wahid aisi zabaan hai jo insaanu ko in ke maazi ki zabaanu se bhi milaati hai aur mojooda zamaane ki zabaanu se bhi aur aainda aane waali zabaanu se bhi milaaye rakhe gi quran ki wajah se aur duniya ke na badalne waale haqaaiq ki wajah se. doosri wajah yeh thi ke ilfaaz par mabni zabaanen aisi hen keh in main khudaa apna matlab bayaan nahin kar sakta tha insaanu ke liye kyunkeh insaani dimaagh aisi zabaanu ka mutahammal nahin jin main har baat ko doosrun tak pohnchaane ke liye bahot hi ziyaada ilfaaz adaa karne paden. doosre lafzun main jo paighaam khudaa ne insaanu ko quran main arbi zabaan main diya aur us dor main diya jis main arbi zabaan taraqi pazeer thi agar wohee paighaam khudaa duniya ki taraqi yaafta zabaanu main deta to us ki abaarat itni nahin hoti jitni quran ki hai balkeh isse kayee gunaan hoti jisse kayee librariyan bhar jaatin. kyunkeh taraqi yaafta zubaanen aik had tak precision zabaanen ban chuki hoti hen jin main ilfaaz ke maani mehdood hote jaate hen. yahee wajah hai har baat ke liye koi aur hi lafz hota hai jab keh taraqi pazeer zabaan main aik lafz kayee maanu ke liye istemaal hota hai. is main bhi aap bache ki misaal le lijiye keh jab woh baaten karni shuroo karta hai to har apna matlab aik hi awaaz se bayaan karta hai. kuchh arse ke baad kisi aur lafz par bhi us ko uboor haasil ho jaata hai aur yun waqt ke saath saath us ke ilfaaz ka zakheera badhta jaata hai. yun bacha bahot se khayaalaat bahot hi kam ilfaaz main bayaan karta hai phir aahista aahista woh zayaada khayaalaat ziyaada lafzun main zahir karta hai. bache ki baten jaise kam ilfaaz main maan baap ko samajh aa jaati hen isi tarah jo log un aloom se waaqif hen jo quran ko samajhne ke liye darkaar hen un ko quran ka paighaam samajh aa jaata hai kam ilfaazi ke bawjood. agar khudaa quran ke bajaaye koi bahot hi bada encyclopeadia naazal kar deta to kia insaan us ko padh sakte? phir padhna hi nahin us ko yaad rakhna likhna taa keh us ki kaapiyan banayee jaa saken waghera waghera aisa maamla ban jaata jo insaani taaqat se bahir tha.

yahee wajah hai is baat ko samajhna laazmi hai keh khudaa to apni taraf se logoon ke liye aik mukammal mufassal kitaab bhej deta jis ki tafseer ki zaroorat hi na padti magar log us ko istemaal main na laa sakte. phir yeh keh agar khudaa har baat hi khud insaanu ko bataa deta to insaanu ke karne ko kia reh jaata? woh to yun ho jaata jaise khudaa ne aik robot banaaya hai aur us ko poori tarah program kar diya hai bajaaye keh us ko khud ko program karne de. kyunkeh logoon ke azhaan mehdood hen yahee wajah hai khudaa ko bhi apne kaamun ko mehdood hi rakhna padta hai. aur phir yahee wajah hai khudaa ne to apni taraf se logoon ko ilm wahee kar diya magar log to baat ko samajhte samajhte samjhen ge kyunkeh insaanu ko irtqayee yani taraqi ki manaazil se guzarna padta hai. aisa nahin hai keh idhar khudaa ne baat ki udhar insaan ne is ko poori tarah samajh liya.

hamaare molvi hazraat in bareekyun se waaqfiyat haasil nahin karte isi liye bekaar fatwe banaate aur bakhairte rehte hen aur jo log thoda bahot ilm rakhte hen un ke bataaye huwe deen se door ho jaate hen apni naa samjhi ki wajah se. yahee wajah hai ummat ko molvi hazraat ko apni apni hadood ke andar rakhna chahiye taa keh yeh log ummat main apni naasamjhi ki wajah se fitna fasaad karwaane se baaz rehen.

is qisam ki baaten bahot tafseel talab hoti hen aur in ko samjhe baghair guzaara bhi nahin hai. isi liye logoon ko deene islam ki itni samajh nahin hai jitni ka un ko dawaa hota hai. is liye logoon ko aapas main ladayee jhagde ke bajaaye asal baatun ko jaanane main waqt guzaarna chahiye jis ka bahot faaida ho ga.

Quran ko samajhna sirf arbi zabaan jaanane se mumkin nahin ho jaata warna khud arab log quran se is qadar naa aashnaa na hote jitne ke woh hen haalan keh quran un ki apni zabaan main hai. is baat ko sochen khud hamaare pakistan ke log kyun itne jahil hen kia woh pakistan ki zabaanun main baat nahin karte aapas main? wajah yeh hai un ko woh cheezen jaanane ka ishtyaaq hasil nahin jo insaan ko aqlo fikar ki taraf mutawaje karta hai. un ki dilchasbi bahot hi sathee aur mehdood hai. isi liye woh qowm taraqi nahin kar sakti jis main cheezun ko jaanane ki lagan nahin hai. jin ko thodi bahot lagan hai bhi un ke peechhe mullah log dande liye phirte hen keh woh cheezun ko jaanane ka shoq hi kyun rakhte hen keh un ki nazar main har kaam jo un ki ilmi satah se buland ho ghalat hai isi liye us ke mutaliq maloomat haasil karne ki koi zaroorat nahin hai qowm ko. isi wajah se ummat aaj is mushkil se guzar rahee hai jo hamaare saamne hai keh qowm mullah parast hai deen parast nahin hai.

asal baat yeh hai quran insaanu ki apni zabaan main khudaa ke maqaasid ki tarjumaani karta hai, khudaa quran main insaani zabaan main apna muddaa bayaan karta hai. ab khudaa ka mudaa kia hai insaan samajhne ki koshish karen ge to hi samjhen ge warna aur kia tareeqa hai us ki baatun ko samajhne ka? isi mudaa ko samajhne ke liye quran ke ilfaaz ke woh maani nahin liye jaa sakte jo ham insaan apne apne matlab ke liye lete hen jab ham aapas main baaten karte hen. is liye keh hamaara ilm mukammal nahin hai haqaaiq ke baare main jin ke mutaliq khudaa ham se baat karta hai. misaal ke tor par Allah ham se quran main zameen ke baare main badi tafseel se baat karta hai magar kia ham jaante hen zameen kia hai, yeh kaise wajood main aayee yaa kaise kaam karti hai yaa is ka maqsad kia hai? ham khudaa ki baatun ko jo woh zameen ke baare main karta hai tab jaa kar samjhen ge jab ham khud yeh jaanane ki koshish karen ge keh zameen hai kia balaa aur yeh haise wajood main layee gayee aur kia kia karti hai aur kaise kaise karti hai waghera waghera. agar ham zameen ki jaankaari haasil hi nahin karen ge to quran ko kia khaak samjhen ge? isi tarah quran insaan ke bare main baat karta hai bahot hi tafseel ke saath magar agar ham ne insaan ke baare main kuchh bhi jaanane ki koshish hi nahin ki to ham quran ki baatun ko kia samjhen ge? yeh to aisi baat ho gayee keh aik shakhs ham se kisi zubaan main baat karta hai aur khud ham ko woh zabaan nahin aati aur ham seekhna bhi nahin chahte magar ham us ke saath baaten zaroor karne ke khwaan hen. isi tarah quran bahot si deegar cheezun ke bare main baat karta hai.

sawaal yeh peda hota hai kia ham ne un cheezun ke baare main tafseel se jaankaari haasil kar li hai? agar jawaab nahin main hai to ham yeh dawaa kaise kar sakte hen keh ham ne quran ko saheeh tarah se samajh liya hai? yahee wajah hai quran arbi zubaan main naazil kiya gayaa kyunkeh is main ilfaaz maadun se bante hen aur maade kaise wajood main aaye hen yeh ham ko maloom karne ki zaroorat hai taa keh ham samajh saken quran ilfaaz ko maani kaise deta hai aur hamaare liye qurani ilfaaz ke kia kia maani hen agar ham quran ka paighaaam saheeh tor par samajhna chahte hen. yahee wajah hai koi shakhs arab mumaalik main peda hone se quran ka aalim nahin ban jaata. is main bahot se raaz hen jin par se parda uthaana laazmi hai. khud arbun ko bhi ham ko samjhaana pade ga keh quran ko woh kaise samjhen to samajh aaye ga warna nahin. aur yahee wajah hai jab tak ham quran ko samajhne ke saheeh tareequn ko nahin samajh lete quran samajhna hamaare liye naamumkin hai. aur jab tak ham khud quran ko nahin samjhen ge doosrun ko kia samjhaayen ge? is liye ham ko agar deene islam se mohabbat ka dawaa hai to quran ko samajhne ki koshishun main lag jaana chahiye. Allah yaqeenan hamaari madad farmaaye ga agar ham apne daawe main sache hen.

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Peace lahori1932

Yes … Jinn have choice … That is why Iblees chose not to prostrate to the Adamic form. Leader of angels does not have to be an angel. In the Qur’an it states that:

Surah Kahf (18) verse 50

And [mention] when We said to the angels, “Prostrate to Adam,” and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.

So Iblees is Jinn … But the Qur’an only says “We said to the angels” … This means somehow Iblees was included in this instruction. This is because the ‘seat’ of ‘angel’ was given to Iblees … In other words ‘angelic status’ was given to Iblees … And on top of that he was their leader.

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Peace brother psyah, I do not think if I answered the question people will appreciate the answer till I had explained the idea behind my answer. I rather stay put till I have time to explain things the way they should be understood as I see things. So I rather let people ponder over what I have explained rather than argue with anyone over things we need time to understand on our own.

Hopefully I will find time to explain what words MALAAIKAH and JINN mean in the context of the quran as I understand things.

regards and all the best.

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I have had this very same debate with a friend who is a student of Shah Sahab. I agree with many of the things SS says, but this is among the points I differ on. I believe Iblees was a jinn. Iblis might have done sooo much ibadat that he gained the rank of a farishta, but I believe that physically he was a jinn. Even human beings can be likened to angels or jinns or animals...but physically we're still human. Also, Iblees's refusal to prostrate indicates that he had free will...something the angels don't have. Angels cannot rebel. Moreover, if Iblees's reason for thr refusal was that he believed being made from fire rendered him superior to the creation of Hazrat Adam (AS)...then we know that jinns are made from fire. Had Iblees argued that he was made from noor....perhaps they'd be greater room for speculation that he might have been an angel...and this is just a guess of mine, I am no scholar.

Saying that someone is leader of a group does NOT make the leader the same as the group. If a human being is leading a group of animals, it does not also make him an animal. Hazrat Sulaiman (AS) was ruler of the jinns, but this leadership did not also make him a jinn...he was still a human. So SS's statement that Iblis was a the sardaar of faristay....does not automatically make Iblis a farishta as well. But if SS also says that Iblees was an angel....then the reader's confusion is understandable. Perhaps SS means that Iblees had done so much ibadat that he was likened to a farishta. I believe that this is something that SS should be respectfully questioned about with reference from the Quran. SS is very nice and humble, MA, so I don't think he'd mind making clarifications on this statement.

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This does not mean he said Shaitan was angel.

BTW: Shaitan is also the leader of many human.

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Peace Sister redvelvet

Are you sure that SS really believes Iblees is of angelic nature rather than Jinn ... The very verse I quoted Surah Kahf verse 50 calls him Jinn, but it also only says "we said to the angels" ... I think SS may be misunderstood.

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Aslamo-Alaikum ALL
Thank you for your views and I agree100%. Moreover for information I wrote to Shah Sahib for clarification of his statement with reference to Quran and Hadees. I arranged this letter to be delivered to his house in ALLAMA IQBAL TOWN< LAHORE by a COURIER. He was told that SS does not reply as he can not take stress but ss can deliver interview for hours and travel from city to city , country to country.
However I wanted to learn and understand and also to warn others who read his books.
LAHORI

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Dear Brother … Intention of the writer is simple, that is, he was giving information or mentioning what is known to most Muslims … so, he was not saying anything new that he has to justify.

It seems, what is bothering you is, how can Iblees, who was Jinn, became leader of Angels. To understand this is simple, that is, it was not his (Iblees) merit, but it was Allah who appointed him Sardar of Angels. I hope you do believe that Allah has right to do that, don’t you? :)

Well, not only that, but even when Iblees was thrown out of that position, he was still given power by Allah that he managed to enter Paradise (Jannah) to misguide Adam (AS) and existed from there too, something that no ins or jinn can do.

Well, Allah making one of his creation or individual from that creation above other of his creation, is right of Allah as well as Sunnah of Allah … and there is no reason to get surprised about it.

For example: Allah has given authority to humans over many of his creations that we experience every day of our life and never question (human riding horses or camel, having pets, domesticated animals, and even fish and birds, etc). We should know that Angels, Jinns or humans are creation of Allah same way as horses, camels, goats, cows, sheep, dogs, cats, dolphins, doves, and so on. Only difference is the character what Allah gave to his creations, but then, that is also dependent on what Allah desired to give, else, Allah can make a bird talk and a human dumb.

I would have given you examples that Sulaiman (AS) was given authority over Jinns by Allah and no one feel confused about that, because we know that Allah has authority to do that. Same way, we believe that Prophet (SAW) is considered blessing for all of Allah’s creations living in any world (Rahmatul-lil-Alameen) and no one doubt that … so, why doubt or question that Iblees was made Sardar of Angels by Allah. But, what I want you to understand is that, instead of questioning, ask yourself that what is mentioned or claimed, is it beyond the authority of Allah?

Sure, just for sake of knowledge or understanding, you can ask that, was Ibless Sardar of Angels?

And answer is that, according to many knowledgeable Muslims, Iblees was very pious and ibadat-guzar … and was made Sardar of Angels by Allah. Actually, it is believed that when Allah ordered Angels to prostrate Adam (AS), being Sardar of Angels, this order automatically became applicable on Iblees too … or Iblees being leader of Angels got bounded by this order.

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Aslamo-Alaikum , Sleem Sahib
I am really shocked to know from you that Iblees was appointed SARAR of Angels by Allha (swt). It will be an addition to my knowledge If you kindly give me reference from QURAN or Hadees.
You have mentioned the Hazrat Suleman It is correct because it is mentioned in the Quran. No argument. Hope for reply.
Lahori