A question to those who have spent some time residing in countries where their families did not keep servants (Canada, Austria, UK, etc). When you went back to Pakistan for a visit (or permanently), was it easy to adjust to having servants in the house(s) you were living in? This thought never even occurred to me that i might feel odd living in a house where there were servants; i have been visiting Pakistan almost every year for vacations, but after we left for Canada, our visits to Pak became sporadic and irregular. After an eleven year break of not visiting Islamabad, finally went this year & felt very odd, VERY uncomfortable, about having someone clean my clothes, make my tea/lunch/supper. i wasn’t certain what to call the servants all of whom were older than me. My relatives told me to call them by their first names, but how could i do that when one of the main naukaron was my mother’s age? Is it me being weird? Should i have tried to make myself adjust to that system? Especially if someone was older than me, i hated the thought that someone else was ironing my shalwar kameezes, or worse, picking up my plate after i have finished eating - just doesn’t feel right. i think i’m blabbing so i’ll shut up, but did anyone else perceive this to be a problem for them?
I felt exactly the way you did...
I cant stand the fact that some people are treated like kings, just becuase they happen to have money. No one is superior to anyone else. Pakistani fat cats need the arrogance beaten out of them. They should come to America where they have to do everything for themselves, and then realize they aren't the center of the Universe.
I hate the way servants are treated in Pakistan, it makes me uncomfortable for three reasons. One because they are being treated like they are lower class, two because they put me and others on a pedastle I dont deserve to be on, and three becuase it makes the family look like snobs. If I ever go to Pakistan, I will make it a point to bring myself of my pedastle...
My father was in the Air Force where unlike the Pak Army, the servants are not given but offered. Either you get one who is recruited by the Air Force or you get an allowance to get one yourself. The allowance wasn't enough and you would have to give them something from your own salary as well.
Anyway, we had a few when I was younger. First name followed by Chacha was how I would call 'em. My siblings used 'chacha' or 'bhai' depending on the age difference.
I would certainly understand if someone living their whole life in Western countries would find it hard to cope with. Here labor is so expensive that at time the maids makes more money than engineers. :)
Anyway, it should be looked from a social point of view. Most of the "Chachas" that came & lived with us were from our village. My father used the program as a welfare system where they would work at our house & in return Dad would pay them something every month, along with taking up the full expenses for their education! People in the village would compete to send their teenage kids to our house as there used to be only a primary school within the 10 mile radius of the village at that time.
I remember once we had three at the same time ... not that our family had so much work to do but for their education. All helped Mom or Dad with cooking, cleaning and choirs (sp?) around the house. We, the children, were suppose to do our own stuff, even cleaning ironing etc.
"Chacha Ismael" is one of the people who works for us in our village. Up till my teens I never knew he was not the real brother of my father. He not only is treated like one but also has a great influence in house hold matters now that he is about 55. He came to work for us when he was 10.
So, its a social system in developing countries where labor is cheap ... and it depends on how the person who has the servant treats them.
i like how Ahmadjee's father used to pay for their education, but i suspect that's the exception not the rule in Pakistan. (Please correct me on this, anyone, if i'm wrong). It's to his father's credit that the servants in Ahmadjee's house were treated so well Masha'Allah. i don't know, i guess it's my acculturation but small things like, the servants eating at one table and the rest of the family eating at another - why does that have to happen? One of my relatives has a driver from morning to evening; he used to drive me to and from work. It was just the two of us in the car, and the first day i sat at the back, feeling scared not knowing what to say. Then i felt ridiculous, and from the second day until the day i left Islamabad, i sat on the front passenger seat next to him & Masha'Allah we had wonderful conversations about his family, his travels throughout Pakistan, Islam, Canada etc. i know my relatives didn't like that, no one else in the household did that. Another time, one of the maids (who is my mother's age) got very very sick; i took care of her, made her tea, hugged her, held her hand, helped her to the car for her doctor's appt. It was just natural - you do it for anyone. But my cousins were mortified & told me not to do that. Why??? Isn't she human? Doesn't she breathe? She could be better in God's eyes than the lot of us combined if she is more pious and truthful than us.
i know exactly how Adnan feels - you feel why be put on a pedestal that is so artificially constructed. It's Ahmadjee's father who treated servants in an exceptional manner Masha'Allah. Wish all households in Pakistan that employ servants would descend from their arrogance and do the same.
Nadia,
Even though the norm of my house isn't common in Pakistan but you have to look at the social structure of the society. Yes, its an imbalance but mostly it works out to the benefit of the "servant".
From the servants point of view, even if their employer does not help out & treat 'em merely as those who work for them ... still aren't getting a bad deal.
The kids who wanted to come to our house & work, mostly didn't have education on their minds - their parents might have. They wanted to come so they can live in the city, watch color TV, have good food to eat and don't have to deal with their parents/family, not to mention working at a house is far better than working in the fields.
I 100% agree that they should be treated better and should live as part of the family. I do have to confess that in my family they did not eat with us. Usually before or after in their own room or in the kitchen. In our village those who work for us sit with the family to eat but even then they are on the side & usually out of the usual conversations (except Chacha Ismael)
I know how you feel, I mean I haven't gone back in years and it's not like I've been living outside Pakistan for decades, but when we were little we didn't have any servants at home and mum and aunts use to do all the work. But we did have some in my nana's house, who we'll just call khala or maasi whatever they were called by the other members of the family, none of the young people called them by their names though. But now things have changed and most of the family has servants and some of them haven't exactly had good experiences with them either. Due to the servants stealing things and not doing their job properly. I know not all of them are like that, maybe our khandan's just been unlucky, but personally I wouldn't like any naukar weghera doing my washing or cooking my food, I would prefer that some family member did it or I did it myself.
If people don't hire servants, then all these people will be out of jobs and looking for work. In our society, people keep servants for both the reasons of getting some help in household work and also as a natural evolutionary method of providing employment to a large number of people.
And if you have hired them, then it makes sense to make them do some work, instead of just giving them pocket-money. The work they do depends on their skill-set. Some are expert chefs, some are drivers, and some just learn on-the-job, meaning cleaning the house, washing clothes and the so-called "ooper kay kaam" which translates to getting stuff from the market and doing the dusting around the house, washing dishes, etc.
How you treat these servants is entirely dependant upon your personality and the personality of these servants.
Personally, I feel it is much easier to do the work ourselves, and also the time spent supervising them and the politics going on with these servants (especially if they have been around for some time) was such a pain. They'd have fights amongst themselves, back-biting, flirting bla bla bla. For some time I was always after my mother to get rid of the long line of servants, or atleast those who were overwhelmingly superflous in the household affairs (like having 2 chowkidaars, sheesh!)cause I felt we end up having more tensions and head-ache by having them around.
Now that I only go back to Pakistan for vacations, so I tend just to relax, and treat most of them as friends who are helping us around the house.
There’s one aspect of treating everyone with equal respect and dignity, and then there's another one. How do these people end up working as servants for others. Now, I look back at some of the cultural norms that are so deeply rooted in our society, and each of them makes me mad and sick. Most deplorable is “muzaraa system” or bonded labor. It’s a system widely practiced in the rural areas of Central, Southern Punjab and pretty much all over Sind. Muzaraas live on your land and take care of everything from cultivation, to irrigation and harvesting. Usually, their efforts are reimbursed in the form of scanty share from each harvest. Sadly, you don’t just go out and hire muzaraas, they are just there ever since one gains consciousness, and so were their fathers and forefathers. It’s a vicious and inhumane cycle where each generation would likely end up doing the same jobs as their forefathers; bonded labor. Men work in fields, and women take care of all the chores at home. If you live in cities, some of their members(usually young ones) will accompany you and take care of household. They live fairly well as far as their basic needs are concerned, but are devoid of any chance that each and every one of us takes for granted at times; reaching one’s fullest potential in life.
Normally, the kids of muzaraas start helping out their parents with work at an early age. Those who make it to school are very few. Considering the fact that health care is not widely available to even the landlords in the villages, muzaraas’ number come far below on this ladder. That’s just tip of the iceberg. Sexual exploitation of the female members of muzaraas in the hands landlords is quite rampant and often go unchallenged due to the absolute control over the former lives by latter. And so many other social issues that I can't even think of..
You see and hear about all these things, yet the social injustice goes unnoticed since these things are so ingrained in local culture. I am not sure how, and if this will ever change due to the political and social influence upheld by various landlords. The question is how to change disparity amongst the various classes that exist in our society. I never found an answer to that and don’t know if there’s one..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
My father was in the Air Force where unlike the Pak Army, the servants are not given but offered. Either you get one who is recruited by the Air Force or you get an allowance to get one yourself. The allowance wasn't enough and you would have to give them something from your own salary as well.
Anyway, we had a few when I was younger. First name followed by Chacha was how I would call 'em. My siblings used 'chacha' or 'bhai' depending on the age difference.
I would certainly understand if someone living their whole life in Western countries would find it hard to cope with. Here labor is so expensive that at time the maids makes more money than engineers. :)
Anyway, it should be looked from a social point of view. Most of the "Chachas" that came & lived with us were from our village. My father used the program as a welfare system where they would work at our house & in return Dad would pay them something every month, along with taking up the full expenses for their education! People in the village would compete to send their teenage kids to our house as there used to be only a primary school within the 10 mile radius of the village at that time.
I remember once we had three at the same time ... not that our family had so much work to do but for their education. All helped Mom or Dad with cooking, cleaning and choirs (sp?) around the house. We, the children, were suppose to do our own stuff, even cleaning ironing etc.
"Chacha Ismael" is one of the people who works for us in our village. Up till my teens I never knew he was not the real brother of my father. He not only is treated like one but also has a great influence in house hold matters now that he is about 55. He came to work for us when he was 10.
So, its a social system in developing countries where labor is cheap ... and it depends on how the person who has the servant treats them.
[/QUOTE]
Seems fair in your case... This social system cant be all bad, considering the fact that these people do have a job after all. But I do have a problem when people turn into literal maharajas and treat their servants as lowr class...
One of the major ailments of our society, Feudalism!!! 
instead of feelin weird and strange and uncomfortable … why don’t you people do something abt this? we had servantz when my dad was teaching in lahore engineering university…these servantz were not just servantz but were like a part of our family…respect them just like v respect our elderz and parentz…i never ask them to do anything for me…my mum never ask them to do thingz around the house…only when there was 2 much work to do, she called them to help her… feelin uncomfortable / strange can’t change thingz [that is IF u want to change them] … though my dad left that job 20 yearz ago, these people are still living in our house…they take care of it…and we take care of them :k:
Rab Rakha
DerVaisH
Re: Servants in Pakistan...
Well Nadia i feel just like u do ...I m not used to have servants at home here but when ever i visit pak i see it's in routine there ...and i really dont know that in which "way" i have to treat them and talk to them ...(as my cousin's aunties and my mother in law do) i m very friendly by nature and i talk wid ppl in same way lakin wahan ik Tarika hota hai servants se bat aur deal karnay ka like my cousin's told me everytime ke tum inn logon ko sar par chiraa rahi hoon etc lakin i think mein apni nature se majbor hoon ,yes i felt very uncomfortable to adjust there in this situation first 3 months lakin bad mein aadi hoo gayee thee :)(mein porray 10 maa rah kar wapis ayee thee and it was a wonderful time) but i think i was good with them (mein insan ko insan he samjti hoon) so they were kinda happy i guess .
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
A question to those who have spent some time residing in countries where their families did not keep servants (Canada, Austria, UK, etc). When you went back to Pakistan for a visit (or permanently), was it easy to adjust to having servants in the house(s) you were living in? This thought never even occurred to me that i might feel odd living in a house where there were servants; i have been visiting Pakistan almost every year for vacations, but after we left for Canada, our visits to Pak became sporadic and irregular. After an eleven year break of not visiting Islamabad, finally went this year & felt very odd, VERY uncomfortable, about having someone clean my clothes, make my tea/lunch/supper. i wasn't certain what to call the servants all of whom were older than me. My relatives told me to call them by their first names, but how could i do that when one of the main naukaron was my mother's age? Is it me being weird? Should i have tried to make myself adjust to that system? Especially if someone was older than me, i hated the thought that someone else was ironing my shalwar kameezes, or worse, picking up my plate after i have finished eating - just doesn't feel right. i think i'm blabbing so i'll shut up, but did anyone else perceive this to be a problem for them?
[/QUOTE]
I can definitely see where abuse of this system might come in, especially in feudal societies. My own experience was where the servants weren't really looked on as such and lived more or less like other members of the family joining in the conversations eating the same food etc. If they could find better employment they always could come and go as they pleased. I agree there is still some people in Pakistan who think too highly of themselves though, especially if they have a lot of money.
I think it's hard to judge and strive for a change when everyone feels comfortable with his or her role. Revolution occurs only when there’s widespread dissatisfaction. In most cases of muzaraa system; there’s not. They may be treated quite well and taken care of, but then again, if you are a grower, then you are bound to have muzaraas taking care of land and other stuff. That’s where the problem occurs. Even if the muzaraas could leave, they may not choose to since it may bring economic hardships, and giving up ancestral rituals is never easy. So, how do you tackle this problem? Landlords will never encourage their muzaraas to pack-up and leave because they would have to go out and find someone else to do the job. Best thing one could do is to take care of them, as you would do it to your own...and hope that with overall socio economic uplift of the country, things may change..
Nadia, i have seen both types of people..the one who act nice with servants and the ones that act bad..
Alhumdullilah, in my extended family i have seen all good examples..we were always told to respect elders..you just reminded me of many nice folks from my childhood..there was one uncle who used to take care of my dada as everyone used to work..his name was fazaldeen..but i always called him fazlo baba..then i remember our gardener..i used to call him maali baba..he used to bring toffees for me..and then i remember dhobi baba..i used to love unpacking with him..and counting clothes with him..Ah, i miss them all now..they were like my grandpas..and then it reminded me..that before i was born some lady used to come to help dadi with cooking..she was very old when i was born..she used to come to visit us at time..i still remember holding her hand and going to her place..then i remember this Aasia bua (bua is like phupho)..she was from bangladesh..she was having her daughter's wedding and i was so excited to go there..i still remember those fish and rice from the wedding..Basically, i grew up with servants but i used to take part in their activities together as a kid..
And when i went to visit pakistan this time..at my chachi's place i was very satisfied too..coz her driver whom i call rehman bhai used to eat on the same table as us..he was always treated part of my family..and even when we go backhome..we take gifts for him too..
And yes when i was in backhome, my ammi used to pay for bua's daughter education..and it wasn't government school but an english medium one..
So, as long as helpers are treated well i am fine..and i prefer to do my own jobs..and if i have time i'll help them too(talking about pakistan)
My family back in pakistan had a bengali chef/servant. He was like family to us. We sent his fam in bangladesh eid gifts and everything. We sent his kids money for school. We gave him a ticket to visit bangladesh...even though he hesitated. We even helped him pay for his daughter's wedding. My fam isnt alone. Alot of families that can afford servants take care of them. But there are some which dont.
Nadia this is tottally bizzare and ludicurious
no one in pakistan is ill treating his servants ....actually u have stayed away in a foriegin culture for way too long and dont know what is urs and what is not . (stepping in 2 boats at the same time).
every one in pakistan calls his/her servant with that much respect that u all wannabe/bornabee dont even call ur parents with that amount of respect.(used as a metaphor)
we always called our servant chacha(uncle) or bajji( sister) ....can u believe the ironic situiation , one day I was talkin to my khansama (servant is a colonial term I wont use it) cook, and he said , just imajine if we were all rich how would the world go around , he was very happy to work for us ,as his children were educated fed and clothed by our family and I think who would do that in ur self centered western society.
Now a days if u treat a employee badly u will get it on ur face ...they wont stand for it , I think it when u left pakistan (partition time) u envisiged our society differently well sis!!! things have changed......
secondly if u r workin in the west in any job u r also a servant ...huh ...if u think u have rites sweety pie u r tottally wrong ...the amount of advantages(insaanyat,free education to chilldren, free meals and accomadation) that we give to our employees .....u cant imagine that by the west(34% tax, rent to be paied ur self , food to buy ur self) in 2000 years.....huh so go and fool someone else.
PKC.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Poodenay_Ki_Chutney: *
**Nadia this is tottally bizzare and ludicurious*
no one in pakistan is ill treating his servants ....actually u have stayed away in a foriegin culture for way too long and dont know what is urs and what is not . (stepping in 2 boats at the same time).
every one in pakistan calls his/her servant with that much respect that u all wannabe/bornabee dont even call ur parents with that amount of respect.
we always called our servant chacha(uncle) or bajji( sister) ....can u believe the ironic situiation , one day I was talkin to my khansama (servant is a colonial term I wont use it) cook, and he said , just imajine if we were all rich how would the world go around , he was very happy to work for us ,as his children were educated fed and clothed by our family and I think who would do that in ur self centered western society.
Now a days if u treat a employee badly u will get it on ur face ...they wont stand for it , I think it when u left pakistan (partition time) u envisiged our society differently well sis!!! things have changed......
secondly if u r workin in the west in any job u r also a servant ...huh ...if u think u have rites sweety pie u r tottally wrong ...the amount of advantages(insaanyat,free education to chilldren, free meals and accomadation) that we give to our employees .....u cant imagine that by the west(34% tax, rent to be paied ur self , food to buy ur self) in 2000 years.....huh so go and fool someone else.
PKC.
[/QUOTE]
I don't know what prompted such an outburst of anger. I think you haven't read Nadia's posts clearly. Kindly, keep your emotions in check in this forum.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by outlaw: *
I don't know what prompted such an outburst of anger. I think you haven't read Nadia's posts clearly. Kindly, keep your emotions in check in this forum.
[/QUOTE]
Dear outlaw
It wasnt a burst of anger.....yar...Please I was trying to have a discussion ....u should know that there is no body language used on the internet .....so ppl might precieve ur writting as a bout of anger.Thats why u need to be an optamist rather then a pesamist and think that the person has written all this in good intent . i.e. if his point is valid.
Secondly when I used the term "U" it was ment generally/metaphorically rather then insinuating Nadia. I was just tryin to get my point across. Because if u use loads of thank u ,please, using an appeasing language it gets "u" (here u is used in a GENERIC way ) off topic.
I still apolagise if Nadia did find my writting offending.
PS Time and again Gupshup admin have been told to have a bachelors degree mandatory for all mods ...but Alas! to no Avail.
PKC
i was afraid of looking at this thread but since i started it, i suppose my response is overdue.
Poodenay_Ki_Chutney :) Let me apologize if you have misunderstood my intention for initiating this thread. It was certainly not intended to offend anyone, least of all fellow Pakistanis.
i am sorry.
i am certainly not trying to "fool" anyone on Gupshup - i am not certain how i would do that, it's not as though anyone is guillible enough to believe anything without considering it first for themselves. You have seen some of the more intelligent responses in this very thread; Masha'Allah we have some very wise Guppies, none of whom will believe what i state without first analyzing it themselves - which is how it should be at all times!
Yes i have spent time in a "foreign" culture, yes that is where i am residing at the moment. With all due genuine respect to yourself, i am not aware how that makes me less of a Pakistani or how that puts anyone in a rational position to judge me. i must stand before Allah to be Judged; after Him, it is my parents but i will stand to be judged by no one else. Please forgive me, but i am not trying to be holier-than-thou, superior or anything like that. Infact i detest people like that, whatever ethnicity they are.
As for your comment regarding the Admin and Mods, please exclusively level all your criticisms towards the individual who started this thread (i.e., me) and towards NO ONE else. Outlaw made a very rational, logical point in a most respectful manner and i am grateful for that. Let's keep this between me and yourself, not between any other Moderator. i hope this resolves this issue Insha'Allah.
Please please accept my apologies since i have caused offence, truly it was most undeliberately done so.
Take care & Allah Hafiz,
nadia