I’m not sure in which part of the forum this thread belongs, so for now I’m posting it here.
I’m sharing this, because in Pakistan there is an issue with dark skin and black people too. Not saying all Pakistanis behave like that, but it is there in society. I grew up in the Netherlands with my parents having some black friends from Portugal, but at the same time often making racist remarks about black people from other countries. I had a friend from Eritrea, she fled the country in the 90s because of war. She had no idea where the rest of her family was and if they were even save. Yet, all my parents could think about was that I was friends with a black class fellow, not perceiving her as a human being with her own story. She was just another black person for them. We had a family business of selling cloth amongst other products. Whenever there were black customers, my parents would make nasty remarks about them after they left.
Many Pakistani family friends here had similar negative opinions about black people, even if they did have one or few black friends or were friendly with some black people. Most of them weren’t harrassed by black people in any way at all, they didn’t have nasty experiences with black people.
During a family visit in Pakistan, I met some dark skinned cousins, some of who were still single. People were saying how sad it was that they were not married and wouldn’t be married. They were kind and pretty and skilled, yet were being judged by their skin. So I’m sharing this video here, hoping some of us will take something positive from it and use it in life. Again, not saying all Pakistanis have an issue with dark skin or black people. Seeing White Fragility (RISE District) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdFCRHhygHo
A little bit awareness of their religion (assuming those Pakistanis are muslims) will make them stop worrying about petty nonissues such as color of skin.
I have long thought about this topic as every now and then I would meet some desi who would prefer to stay as far away from black people as possible. I have lived mostly in poor neighborhoods and my friends/family would always have something bad to say about it. Excuse is always crime and safety. Even when choosing a store to shop at or a restaurant to dine at, I have heard of all sorts of negative comments about blacks. I went to this national park with friends a while back and on our return everyone was full of praise for the national park. Not because of scenic views. But because there were no blacks seen on the entire trip !
I don?t dislike people who make such comments once in a blue moon or someone who is new but I don?t get along with those who have a habit of passing such comments. I have had to deal with bad, criminal black individuals but I do not generalize it.
I think a lot is also to do with being overly status conscious and British colonization of the sub-continent which instilled ranking of people based on skin color. I have some relatives who are very fair, and many times they get preferential treatment from other relatives.
I do understand when someone who has been harassed a lot by certain people becoming more careful around them. I can speak for myself. Yet when I met people with that similar background, I still gave them a chance because they were not the culprits themselves.
In the same way I understand if someone will be more careful around me if that person has had many nasty personal experiences with muslims or pakistanis. I do expect that person to behave civilised to me though and once they get to know I am not one to harrass them or bully them to realise not all muslims or pakistanis are the same.
So I do understand if someone is more careful after nast experiences. What I don’t understand is racism and discrimination for the sake of racism and discrimination
Same here. Well, my skin is a little lighter. Often I’ve been asked if I am from Turkey, one of the Arab countries, Spain, Italy, etc. People are always surprised when I call myself a brown person. But that’s what Desi people are, brown people.
When growing up, white Dutch people always thought I came from Turkey because they thought my salwar kameez was Turkish They’d often yell at me to go back to Turkey and make fun of my Pakistani clothes. Pakistan isn’t well known in most places of the Netherlands. Quite a few Dutch people actually thought we speak Arabic and others don’t realise we are Asian too. To them only Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are from Asia.
Isnt it coming from wayy back our mentality? Fair & luvly ads etc making a run? Remember those “Farq saaf zahir hai” beauty ads? That included the rishta scene as well.
Everything adds up.
and then there are songs, Goray rang ka zamana, kabhi hoga na purana..
Although people like holy who are in absolute minority do believe in Sanwali Saloni si mehbooba
What about advertisements in the West which feature Black models that are either light skinned or have more “Caucasian” features? Or how about the advertisements where there is only one Black model among 2-3 lighter skinned models…?
What about female Black singers who croon about female empowerment and speak vehemently about confidence and self-acceptance in their interviews…but their own lyrics and words are contradicted by their skin-bleaching, which they never openly admit to. What example are they setting for the masses and especially the youth?
This is not just a Desi issue. The same phenomenon can be found in countries and cultures that are believed to be more “open-minded” or “enlightened.”
While you won’t see the shocking desi ads here in the west about making your skin fairer, there are issues here too. Often racism is hidden or it’s present as constitutional racism. In the Netherlands racism is often against all foreigners, no matter what their skin colour is. It always surprises me how the foreigners here often don’t work together, but many of them are racist against each other too.
About the fair skin obsession in Pakistan and India, I always wondered how people felt before the colonisation. Was lighter skin celebrated more than darker skin in poems and songs in previous centuries too? I always thought the British brought that practice with them. Now I wonder, was it there already before they arrived? We did have Mughals who had lighter skins too. How did people feel about skin colour back then?
Exactly. And people from other cultures can have a pretty nasty attitude about these matters as well. When they are among their own group they let it out. WE often think that they are better than us. But they are just like us.
Lmao at the people crying about “b-b-but the West!” over and over again. Can you people talk about this issue and how it manifests in our culture without crying about “The West!”? We know ~even the Westerns do this~ but how about we talk about how it is in our culture.
Everyone agrees that we have these issue in our community. I don’t think anyone will deny that. However, the way some people portray certain negativities and again and again act as if only Pakistanis are guilty of doing it and the rest of the world is guilt-free in that matter, is pretty annoying.
Yes, it is annoying when people keep saying only this or that culture has certain problems. Living in The Netherlands, I’ve been hearing this all my life about islam and Pakistan. No, it’s not okay when this happens.
Yet, we should be able to discuss the problems we have in our cultur and try to solve them. Try to make things better. We can’t not discuss issues and not find a solution, because others cultures have similar issues. We ourselves are now having a discussion to understand ourselves and other Pakistanis. When we understand what is happening, we can try to make things better. That is the only aim here.
The article I shared btw, is about racism in the west, in this case the US. That is not denying it is in other places, that is saying it is there, but we have it here as well. Let’s discuss and see if we can do something about it. Why should that be a problem?
I’ve come across several of your posts where you shared negative experiences with Desis and so I was under the impression that you viewed Desi culture on the whole in a more bleaker light than others and that led me to remark that the phenomenon is found everywhere and not only among Desis. Perhaps my assumption was a hasty one and I apologize for that.
Various religions associate “darkness” with wickedness, depravity, the absence of light, loss, and defeat. Look at the stories that children are exposed to; think of how the villains are usually depicted. The adjectives used to describe hell and its inhabitants (dark, ashen, etc) may account for feelings of superiority among those who are lighter skinned. This is one theory (among others) that I had come across. Perhaps some Desis have the same mindset (either subconscious or otherwise). The concept of “noor” is about a spiritual light and not skin color. A very dark person can also have noor on their face. The word Adam means “dark” in Arabic and so there is a theory that the first man to be created, Hazrat Adam (AS), was dark and he is a very revered prophet. So, that’s like a bit of an irony to ponder upon. There are other theories as well that I’m sure you’ve heard about. For instance that darker coloring is associated with the “lower” class (laborers, farmer, etc) and that lighter complexions are associated with the elite, the ruling class, etc. You mentioned that at least the West does not have the kind of blatant skin-whitening commercials that are commonly found in Pakistan, etc etc. And I agree with that, but I also feel that “whitening” is couched in other words…such as “brighter.” Even creams/lotions that are designed to inhibit melanin production (and attempt to lighten the skin a bit)…will use words such as “brighten”..“clearer”…“glowing” as opposed to whitening or lightening. I don’t know what is worse…the blatant commercials in Pakistan…or the hypocrisy of many darker-skinned celebrities in the West (and elsewhere) who send double messages to the masses about confidence and self-acceptance…and who will not admit to their skin bleaching nor their plastic surgeries.
To tackle the overt and covert/subliminal racism that we see in the media and in other institutions (the world of business and marketing, law enforcement, etc) would be a very arduous undertaking. The change that you speak of would start at the individual level and it requires a lot introspection. Even folks that have overall more open-minded attitudes may not be aware of their contradictions when they laugh at a joke that is racist…because soooo much is deeply embedded in our subconscious (from family attitudes, cultural tendencies, storybooks, the media, personal experiences, etc etc)…that we are all walking contradictions…even the best among us.
I do understand it might come across like that, when these are the most topics I discuss. No need to apologise for your assumption Redvelvet, you didn’t call me nasty names, you just said what you thought and now we understand each other better. Nothing wrong with that.
Yes, I do have negative experiences, but that’s not all. I find we also have something special in our Pakistani culture which you won’t find anywhere else. I was born and raised in the Netherlands and though my parents were strict at home, at school I still had Dutch culture and of course from books and tv. Dutch culture influenced me too. I’m a product of both cultures. I criticise the Netherlands as much as Pakistan. Some Dutch people actually think I don’t like the Netherlands at all because I honestly say how much discrimination and racism I experienced while growing up here and even as an adult.
I don’t criticise the Netherlands and Pakistan out of spite or hate, but because these are the cultures I know the most and care about the most. I feel like discussing certain issues from Pakistan with Pakistanis is not blaming us, I’m not saying these things as an outsider, I’m saying they are there and how they make me and many others feel and hope perhaps someone will perhaps change something in the way they think or act, or perhaps make me understand their opinion so I learn something from that.
Thank you for your input. Yes, I did hear the theories about light and dark in literature or the working class. What surprises me about our muslims is how they know about the honour that Bilal (as) was given, and that is just one story, but one of the most famous ones and yet still this negative way of thinking about all darker skinned people. And you are right, there are many theories about Adam (as) coming on earth in Africa first and scientific theories stating that humans originated from Africa. It’s all fascinating.
It hurts when the way you look takes away your achievements and who you are as a person in the eyes of many people. I never knew a life without experiencing dislike or hate because of the salwar kameez I always wore and because of being Muslim. That’s why this subject of racism and discrimination interests me so much.
Precious life is destroyed every day because people can’t stand someone from a different religion or colour or country or whatever reason they come up with. It begins with nasty thoughts and can end with the death of innocent life eventually, if we are not careful.
They’d often yell at me to go back to Turkey and make fun of my Pakistani clothes. Pakistan isn’t well known in most places of the Netherlands. Quite a few Dutch people actually thought we speak Arabic and others don’t realise we are Asian too. To them only Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are from Asia.