Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

No, but he socially re-engineered the society from tolerant and peace loving nation to a jihadi frankenstein that it is today.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Zia used religion to make both religious and irreligious people fool.

His idea was to make people hyped up against socialist power.
Nothing less nothing more.

Besides, he was not elected.
Those who were ruled had no choice at all to question his authority and his way of handling the country.

Zia chose people of his liking and escalated the religious sentiments only to get the desired goal achieved.

One cannot use Zia as the example of 'religious' ruler or even as a representative of Pakistani people.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Now it is very obvious from the history of Pakistan that religious people never actually ruled the country.

If one removes army rule, it is easily seen that even in so called elected Govt. years of Pakistan, none of the religious parties ever had their PM or President selected/elected.

People who attended schools outside Pakistan or had green card are included in the rulers of Pakistan by the way. None of them religious. :)

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

^ not sure if z
Zia was described here as representative of the people

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

^Added few words to avoid confusion. Thanks.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

^ thank you!!

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

U know I just noticed, you are a moderator now! Congrats.

Thats something to tell your friends, I'm sure its not everyday you meet an Indian moderating a Pakistani forum! :D

But honestly, I can't think of anyone better suited for the job...

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Than you for the kind words! This is more a tribute to the forum, the members and the leadership. This is more than an online forum filled with strangers. Good people.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Your sarcasm is cute, but confused. This thread is about the prospect of a secular Pakistan. To understand the rise of politicized Islam, to address how and why madrassas came to breed militancy requires a discussion of Zia. His regime laid the groundwork for the post-Cold War blowback you face today. Those who manipulate religion for political ends, use it to confiscate civil liberties, to discriminate against women and minorities need to be dealt with severely. This is why his legacy should be re-hashed until we learn our lesson.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

We have Slavs in Pakistan too!?!?! Wait till my Albanian landlord hears this! In Pakistan, its HIS people who are the tenants! :jhanda:

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Interesting how each and every problem, be its social,economic,political or any other, is squarely attributed to the islamization of the society or the zia regime. Shows that the knowledge of the country and its issues is derived solely from reading ''literature'' written by those who themselves don't know about paksitan...

Professing yourself as an authority over a country, where you haven't lived at all is quite amusing.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Professor do enlighten us with your wisdom, knowledge & history of the country. Do tell us who is responsible for radicalization of the society & downward spiral that it is in today?

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

the point is....about 90% of the problems faced by the people are not related to religous frankenstein or whatever.......the influence of islamist on daily lives of pakistanis is blown out of proportions......... 90% of my problems don't have anything to do with islamist/twisted ideology.......there are far greater issues of education, governance, health economy etc etc...... they are what affects me the most........

and frankly, the jiala's need to let go of the 80's.....seems they are stuck in that era.....and keep blabbering about that all the time. Your dear ''enlightened moderated secularist'' musharraf , is responsible for most of the crisis that the country faces today......including supporting the molvies and all. the beloved socialist secularist people party is plundering the country AGAIN...

I dont' deny that zia was responsible for a lot of what is wrong today........but focusing everything on that isn't productive........all others have equal contribution to the mess that we are in...

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

There are four of us here..........:D

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

lol... Congratulations to u all. Although I think u and I might be on opposite sides of the ideological divide judging by your pattern of "likes," I'm glad to have you here as well. Its speaks volumes for the bonhomie between our two people, AND the patriot in me smiles to know that you have found a place within our forum.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

i know that:D

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Im surprised, outside of the Kashmir issue, most Indians tend to agree with me. I actually thought you were a Pakistani pretending to be Indian. To each his own I suppose... :)

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Whether the rulers were religious or not is irrelevant. Its the fact that they were never sincere is what is at issue. The rulers did whatever they could to remain in power or get into power. religiosity or lack there of was not in issue. Where it served them they were religious, and where it didn't they were not. They courted the religious right to win support and legitimacy and appealed to religious populous.

The only one who was perhaps sincere in his convictions, but in entirely the wrong direction was Zia. He was dismissive of democratic norms, and left wing ideology because he was dictator in the truest sense and a right wing conservative of the worst kind. And he was sincere to his ideological leaning, because his regressive policies were in step with his religious conservative persona, unlike people like Bhutto who despite being a liberal, still passed laws against Ahmadis, etc.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Well if you've found him to be that unpopular, people must be on to something. What is your objection to this thread. I don't see anyone commenting on his economic policies. If the separation of religion and state doesn't interest you, find a thread that does. Secularism involves a discussion of religion, and his regime played a significant role in this context. If you have a soft spot for the man, that's your personal issue.

What "literature" do you suggest, because apparently the Pakistani state doesn't know much about itself either. 'History' books read more like propaganda pamphlets. According to Dr. Ayesha Jalal, "Pakistan's history textbooks are amongst the best available sources for assessing the nexus between power and bigotry in creative imaginings of a national past." Zia took part in this historical revisionism. The 1979 education policy stated that the "highest priority would be given to the revision of the curricula with a view to reorganizing the entire content around Islamic thought and giving education an ideological orientation so that Islamic ideology permeates the thinking of the younger generation and helps them with the necessary conviction and ability to refashion society according to Islamic tenets." With curricula like this, is it any wonder there is little tolerance for pluralism.

You sound like a counter-authority; feel free to share your 2 cents. Why begrudge the input of 2nd generation Pakistanis living in the West? By the same token, those born and raised in Pakistan love to preach at length about America's foreign policy, its evil imperialism, its discrimination against its Muslim minority. But they should probably shut up because they've never lived here. Deal?

Me, me, me. If Islamists don't effect your daily life, good for you. Those in the line of fire aren't as privileged. Enough lives are being destroyed by religious politics to inspire people to re-visit Jinnah's vision. If you find this thread frivolous and want to discuss what effects you most, start a thread.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Is there a reason you double-space every sentence? So he was a personally religious man, he imposed that brand of religion on his populace, and he sought to rule with Shariah. But he's still not considered a 'religious' ruler. The illogical gymnastics you will perform just to save face.

Btw, what does introducing rape laws that discriminate against women have to do with fighting the Soviets? How did amending the Constitution to differentiate between a Muslim and a non-Muslim counter 'socialist power'?

But, but, but. Technically he wasn't a "mullah" in a mosque, so allow Faris Udeen and Diwana their chuckles of vindication. :D