Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

I’m sure if Jinnah was alive today he’d be totally against what has become of his creation.

Secular Pakistan:

By Sonia Malik
Published: August 12, 2012

The original recording of Jinnah’s address to the Constituent Assembly has gone missing.
LAHORE:
Speakers and the audience at a seminar Jinnah ka Pakistan (Jinnah’s Pakistan) on Saturday agreed that the Quaid had wanted to keep religion and state separate.
The seminar was organised by the Awami Party in Model Town to mark Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s August 11, 1947 speech.
Jamil Omar, the party’s general secretary, compared Jinnah’s August 11 speech with the Gettysburg address by Abraham Lincoln and Jawaharal Nehru’s August 15 speech. Every child in the United States and India knows these speeches by heart since it is part of their syllabi, Omar said, but in Pakistan this speech has been censored from the press and never included in school syllabi.
The people of Pakistan should know the speech by heart, he said, but the few who know about it have seen only a censored version of it. Omar said the speech had touched upon four important points: that nepotism will not be tolerated; that the government’s “first, second and last” responsibility is the people’s welfare; that citizens of all faiths will be treated equally; and that Pakistan is an independent and a self-sufficient country.
He said it was the third point which had led to the speech being blacked out. Jinnah had reiterated secularism and wanted to keep state and religion apart, said Omar. If these four points had been adhered to, he said, Pakistan could have been the best country in the world.
Wajahat Masood cited references from several books quoting from Jinnah’s speeches that promote a tolerant Pakistan where religious minorities had equal rights.
He said the Quaid had objected to slogan Pakistan ka matlab kia, La ilaha illallah. Quoting from Malik Ghulam Nabi’s book Daghon ki Bahar he said during his last address to All India Muslim League in December, 1947, a man had asked the Quaid if the slogan was the foundation of Pakistan’s ideology. The Quaid had told him that was not what Pakistan stood for, Masood said.
He said three articles of the national constitution needed to be expunged – Article 2 (a) upholding the Objectives Resolution; Article 227, which says that no law can be repugnant to Quran or Sunnah and Article 203 that gives the Federal Shariat Court the power to strike down any law passed by the parliament that is repugnant to Quran or Sunnah.
He also quoted Thomas Jefferson who had warned that if church was not separated from the state half the people will be hypocrites and the other half stupid. “We should not care if Jinnah was a mullah, a secularist or a pluralist; a nation-state by definition is a secular entity,” he said.
He ended his speech by quoting Jinnah, “In the course of time, Muslims will cease being Muslims; Hindus will cease being Hindus, not religiously, but politically.”
IA Rehman urged the participants to reflect on Jinnah’s views. He said Jinnah had wanted a government that worked for the citizens’ welfare and a country where everyone had equal rights.
After the speeches, the participants asked the party to demand that the clauses added to constitution during General Zia’s rule be removed and the Objectives Resolution declaring Pakistan an Islamic state be denounced. They also demanded that the federation should retain minimal authority and give more powers to the provinces.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

We have seen the country disintegrate because it did not follow the vision of the quaid. The champions of theocracy will keep harping on about 'real islamic government.'

Well, news flash. 'Real islamic government' has not existed anywhere since very very early islamic history. It is unlikely, read impossible, to exist in Pakistan anytime soon.

The more religious Pakistani society gets, the worse it becomes. Quite telling about the depth of that religiosity.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Is it not what AH said a few years ago?

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Allah ki na faramani se kuchh nahi aur qaid-e-azam ke nafarmani ki itni badi saza..........:D

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

^ Allah ki nafarmani say kuch nahin? really?!

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Thats what people seems to thinking now a days..............:D

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Guys, Qaid E Azam has passed this world for more than six decades now, what he wanted or created is of little relevance now.

Even the Earth might not last forever, its up to the people to choose whatever path they desire, one cant afford to be bogged down with "what ifs" anymore theres too much at stake, besides Qaid dont have a say anymore so those who claim to speak for him should learn to speak for themselves or shut up.

PS: I'm with Ninja on this one.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

[quote=“Shamraz_Khan, post:10, topic:265657”]

I’m sure if Jinnah was alive today he’d be totally against what has become of his creation.

Secular Pakistan:

Agree 110 percent. Jinnah wanted a secular Pakistan. We should adhere to the vision of Jinnah and head the warning of Jefferson. Pakistan needs to end this religious chauvinism.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Jinnah was the founder of the nation, so what he wanted is of immense relevance. It is generally accepted that the words of great men, men who are acknowledged for their wisdom, are words that should be acknowledged and adhered to.

You yourself call Jinnah the Quaid E Azam, the leader of a nation, yet you contradict yourself by saying that this Great Leaders words are no longer relevant? If what he wanted is no longer relevant, then he wasn't leader, and if he was a leader, then you would do well to pay attention to what he envisioned. You can't have it both ways. You should either admit that jinnah was the Quaid, and follow his example, or admit he wasn't and continue doing as you like.

Men die, they are mortal. Great ideas however are not, they are immortal. The people are wrong. The system the people have supposedly created for themselves is wrong, and it is slowly eating away at the society.
Jinnah had it right, and the society is losing for not having listened to him.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

He was the founder, of that there is no question.

But he was not the sole founder, others had thier part too, hero worship is also wrong. Yes he is Qaid E Azam but he is not awal aur akhir... nobody can say that another man cannot go further... by your logic lets also say that Bhutto was the father of masses, theres no question when it comes to democratic power Bhutto enjoyed even more support than Qaid E Azam... is Bhutto as important today? Or have people moved on?

Jinnah had it right, but that was then, and even so the man was not entirely faultless, all men make mistakes. Napolean is also the father of Modern France but people there have moved on, just like to an extent Lenin is the father of Russian democracy how times have changed... even America does not follow the steps of Washington, Jefferson or Franklin.

Pakistan wont be able to ressurect Jinnah we need to look for alternatives, I used to think Jinnah was the man who led the Nation to freedom... no he did not, he just put us on the path, freedom is yet to be achieved.

Moses led the Isrealites but it was Yusha ben Noon who completed his task, likewise there is nothing that lasts forever... if people failed Jinnah they probably aint worthy of him anyway, so they can either die or come up with something different.

I agree great ideas are immortal but that does not mean humans will always follow them, Jinnah had it right at the time, but times change even Jinnah would fail today... becuase the challenges are much greater.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

People may have moved on, but then they have been moving in the wrong direction.

There are some things that are right for the times, and then there are things which are right for ALL time.

The principle we are speaking of here pertains to a particular speech in which Jinnah espoused secular ideology. He was right in that instance, regardless of what he was wrong about in the past.

You are right that humans don't always follow great ideas, however, that does not put them in the right. Not following good advice is inherently bad, and usually results in bad consequences.

i think there is a reason why this speech has been edited out of Pakistani text books. The powers that be have wandered from the solid ideological foundation on which Jinnah founded this nation, one that is based on secular principles, that have been tried, tested, and proven, for political reason. In order to maintain their grip on reigns of power, they have exploited religion for their own ends, and created a society of extremes, but managing to retain a power base. By adhering to the principles of Jinnah meant losing the tenuous grip on the reigns of power because it would undermine their central means of exploiting the sentiments of the hyper emotional and sentimental masses.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

[QUOTE]
People may have moved on, but then they have been moving in the wrong direction.
[/QUOTE]

So your saying every Politician since Jinnah was going the wrong way?

[QUOTE]
There are some things that are right for the times, and then there are things which are right for ALL time.
[/QUOTE]

My friend if the Torah and Bible and countless other books became obsolete and did not last for all time... pray how do you think any ideal is able to survive for ever? Niether you nor I can say what will or will not survive as its in niether of our powers to know.

[QUOTE]
The principle we are speaking of here pertains to a particular speech in which Jinnah espoused secular ideology. He was right in that instance, regardless of what he was wrong about in the past.
[/QUOTE]

True, but even Rasool Allah Salalaho alyahi wassalaam and the Caliphe Rashidun, had some decent secularistic policy too, Ali ibn Abi Talib is the first man to have introduced the Insanity defence in a legal case, for those who dont know the story. Caliph Umar wanted to sentence to death a Deewana for slandering the faith but Hazrat Ali said that death penalty was wrong becuase the defendant was insane. I agree Secularism has its place but so does Islam and the lee-way given to non Muslims is great indeed even in a "true" Islamic system.

[QUOTE]
Not following good advice is inherently bad, and usually results in bad consequences.
[/QUOTE]
That is true but if everyone stuck to the path all the time there would be no diversions that could lead to new discoveries who is to say that tommorow a man might come along who can better Jinnah himself?

Some of the most succesfful people themselves broke tradition by going thier own routes Jinnah did it too you know so why cant others break the mould?

All in al this is becoming a very interesting debate. Thankyou Med911 for raising so many good points.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

I mean the leadership in general. Each had his moment, but they all allowed this slide into extremism over time. Some to a lesser degree then others.

The govt, even in its most rudimentary form is essentially tasked with upholding the basic principles on which the nation is founded, instilled within the constitution. The Supreme Court in most countries is tasked with making such interpretations.
General policies may change and evolve, but the essential character, the premise on which he nation is founded is something that is protected. All text, both holy or otherwise, have an essential premise, a basic framework, over which the structure is based. The structure may change, you can add a room, add a wall etc etc, but the basic foundation remains the same. Jinnah in his speech was laying the foundation of state, the very basic principle on which the nation is premised.

You have to be careful in referencing the Prophet PBUH and the Sahabas, because they are not subject to the corruption of which can creep into a system created by the rest of us. Im my opinion, while the Prophet PBUH could create a functional Islamic system, I don't believe man in general can pull of such a feat. In fact, if we are to be truly sincere in protecting the sanctity of Islam, then we would ourselves extricate its noble name from the filth inherent in politics, and avoid having it sullied.
Islam has its place in guiding the lives of individuals, and there is nothing wrong with politicians using Islamic principles when formulating policy, so long as the state does not begin advocating for Islam, and does not make Islam the official religion of the state. Good ideas inherent in Islam are good ideas in all instances, and can also be adapted into a secular govts policies, without being outwardly labeled as being Islamic.
You obviously know your hadeeth, so i will mention this famous one, although I forget the details, I recall that when the Prophet pbuh sent his governor to Yeman (I think), he asked him how he would formulate policy. Do you recall which hadeeth that was, because i think it relevant.

Finally, i made this point in the past. great ideas are great ideas whether they are given an Islamic Label or not. The basic things required to be done for the sake of good governance are done just as well in a secular system as they are done in a so called Islamic state, and often even better. The title of ISLAMIC within the context of any state is then meaningless in so far as both are tasked with the basic requirements of state and citizens there in. The differece however between good governance within a secular state and good governance within an Islamic state, is that beyond the fact that the former is nothing but a hollow label, the former also creates a situation in which the Label becomes more important then the actual accomplishments made under that label. Another words, we may kill the "kufar" and make their life miserable, confuse legislation with vaguely understood dogma, we may neglect the basics of good governance such a education, utilities, infrastructure and even defense, but the Islamic Label must never be questioned.

Ideas should be challenged, but how can new ideas flourish in a society like Pakistan where people can be killed for supposedly challenging the established dogma on which the state is based? Remember Salman Taseer and Shabaz Bhatti?

And how can we even question the policies of Jinnah when those secular policies were never even implemented in any sincere manner. If we had tried secular rule and found it wanting, then we could argue that we could challenge those secular policies. But when those policies were never eve tried, how can anyone challenge their legitimacy?
On the other hand, the system being implimented by the 'Islamic" Republic of Pakistan is a clear and obvious failure, yet we can't challenge it because it is considered divine law.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

First, there was not a clear cut message from MA Jinnah about the Govt. role in terms of religion (s).

Second: It really did not matter as long as the ambition of the people and many who brought the idea of Pakistan matters.

Third: Ultimate reason to have separate state within a larger state or what now became a country is/was religious difference between two majorities. Muslim League used this reason as a major reason for making Pakistan. Period.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

I do agree with you to an extent but its not about just being “religious” which makes it “worse”, its who wants to make it ‘religious’ and how they go about doing it. There is a huge change that is needed in the religious circle before anyone can start putting trust in them to run the country.

yaar, kewn thread ko ganda kar rahay ho?

Individuals who rely on government to be religious are just using an excuse to do their dirty jobs, those who truly want to practice their religion they do it in almost any situation but those who seek excuses will find one excuse or the other to say ‘we need Islamic government for us to be able to do this/that’. Until we as individuals are not going to be true to ourselves, religion we should stop any efforts to make the ‘government’ a religious one, because it will fail miserably and then it will be the religion which will become ‘infamous’ for failure rather than the ‘followers’.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

What Allah ki na farmani? I think you're confusing opposing ignorant mullahs as Allah ki na farmani. Mullahs opposed creation of Pakistan & since then they have done everything to destroy it.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

Mullahs hardly ever ruled Pakistan.

Its the non-Mullahs and there parties who brought so much troubles to Pakistan!

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

So, what you're saying that we should follow mullahs now & their ignorant ways? Perhaps we should all join Taliban? Or become suicidal terrorists?

Btw, separation of religion and state is prerequisites for any nation to succeed in modern world.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

I don't think that is what ninja means, it has more to do with 'Allah ki na farmani' in each and every step of society. Even Taliban don't listen to 'mullahs', they have their own 'scholars'.

Why does being religious equate to joining Taliban or become suicidal terrorists? Is that what religion means to you? You can pick or chose, you can pick "worldly success" or "success in both". BTW, by picking "religion" I am neither picking Talibanic ideals nor the ones promoted by likes of Fazlu or Qadris.

Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’

^Unfortunately this is the perception of religious groups that is portrayed outside Pakistan and it is not that people don’t know the difference between moderate right on the path mullahs… and the extremists/terrorists,…

…the difference is deliberately blurred or made confused so the end result becomes hatred against religious thoughts altogether and irreligious ideas flourish.

Five time Namazi ~ → Religious ~ → Mullah ~ → Ultimately Talibanic and Terrorist

This is the analogy which is used these days. :hehe: