Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
If countries should be obligated to forever stick to the way their founders made them, then in the USA you should still be allowed to buy black slaves.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
Muslim countries would also be trading white slaves sunshine. The Ottomans and the Caliphates engaged in slavery. Times change, but apparently you don't want Pakistan to change with the times.
I like how nobody has sound, objective reasons for why secular rule of law is a bad thing. All I see is irrational lashing out, thinking that secularism is sole property of the West. Europe imported a lot of it's customs from the East.
Pakistan will still be a Muslim majority. The PM and judges will still be influenced by the Quran. The difference is that the judges, and only the judges, will be able to change the law. Ridiculous fatwa's would have no credibility. That's secularism. That's how you ensure it in writing. There is no way to have a theocracy, and then tell a mullah with a following that his fatwa is ill timed or flat out biased.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
Not relevant to the topic but the bold bit is actually not true, in the past yes but not today.
Fair enough. The Pew report says 177 million for India and 178 Million in Pakistan. The point is that we don't see a huge disparity, nor are there flocks of Muslims from India fleeing their evil Hindu masters. What was that about a safe haven for Muslims?
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
[QUOTE]
There is no way to have a theocracy, and then tell a mullah with a following that his fatwa is ill timed or flat out biased.
[/QUOTE]
Well it aint easy but it can and has been done.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
Muslim countries would also be trading white slaves sunshine. The Ottomans and the Caliphates engaged in slavery. Times change, but apparently you don't want Pakistan to change with the times.
I like how nobody has sound, objective reasons for why secular rule of law is a bad thing. All I see is irrational lashing out, thinking that secularism is sole property of the West. Europe imported a lot of it's customs from the East.
Pakistan will still be a Muslim majority. The PM and judges will still be influenced by the Quran. The difference is that the judges, and only the judges, will be able to change the law. Ridiculous fatwa's would have no credibility. That's secularism. That's how you ensure it in writing. There is no way to have a theocracy, and then tell a mullah with a following that his fatwa is ill timed or flat out biased.
Agree with a lot of this
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
Pakistan will still be a Muslim majority. The PM and judges will still be influenced by the Quran. The difference is that the judges, and only the judges, will be able to change the law. Ridiculous fatwa's would have no credibility. That's secularism. That's how you ensure it in writing. There is no way to have a theocracy, and then tell a mullah with a following that his fatwa is ill timed or flat out biased.
But if "secularism" is applied then any 'religious' influence will be challenged, the country could turn into something like France.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
We have seen the country disintegrate because it did not follow the vision of the quaid. The champions of theocracy will keep harping on about 'real islamic government.'
Well, news flash. 'Real islamic government' has not existed anywhere since very very early islamic history. It is unlikely, read impossible, to exist in Pakistan anytime soon.
The more religious Pakistani society gets, the worse it becomes. Quite telling about the depth of that religiosity.
Exactly right. Pakistan was founded on the model of Turkey and Jinnah fashioned himself after Attaturk.
Things went down hill when Zia came to power and radically islamicized every facet of Pakistan with Arab style Wahhabism.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
But if "secularism" is applied then any 'religious' influence will be challenged, the country could turn into something like France.
That's not true. France is about freedom *from *religion, not freedom *of *religion. People actually brought up the point that Christians like George Bush and Tony Blair, while presiding over secular countries, are very devout men. So much so, that perhaps their views on Israel are clouded. Your religious views are a part of you and will influence your policies. That's not always a good thing, as I just mentioned.
If Pakistan was to become secular, the reality is that anyone who is a non-Muslim would have a very hard time getting elected, and a Muslim PM will always be mindful of his or her Islamic heritage. The difference is that our laws would not be open to an extremist's interpretation, and a hateful culture that targets religious minorities would have official opposition from the state. The way we've treated minorities is absolutely sickening.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
That's not true. France is about freedom *from *religion, not freedom *of *religion. People actually brought up the point that Christians like George Bush and Tony Blair, while presiding over secular countries, are very devout men. So much so, that perhaps their views on Israel are clouded. Your religious views are a part of you and will influence your policies. That's not always a good thing, as I just mentioned.
If Pakistan was to become secular, the reality is that anyone who is a non-Muslim would have a very hard time getting elected, and a Muslim PM will always be mindful of his or her Islamic heritage. The difference is that our laws would not be open to an extremist's interpretation, and a hateful culture that targets religious minorities would have official opposition from the state. The way we've treated minorities is absolutely sickening.
Turkish Secularism is the right model for Pakistan.
France is too extreme.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
This still doesn’t say that he wanted Pakistan to be a Theocracy. All it says is that he wanted Islamic economic policies for the Countries. Nowhere does he say that the government should meddle with people’s personal lives and kill them for saying something supposedly blasphemous.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
Forgotten Zia, have we. The country is still reeling from his legacy.
Oh my bad!
How did I forget Allama Aala Hazrat Ziaul Haq Rehmatullah Aleh Maddu Zillahu as being the elected, religious and spiritual leader of the Pakistani people? :D
You know what, mere mentioning Zia in response to my post is sole proof you have no idea of Pakistan, its history and its problems but you love to bring your two cents anyways.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
Guys, Qaid E Azam has passed this world for more than six decades now, what he wanted or created is of little relevance now.
Even the Earth might not last forever, its up to the people to choose whatever path they desire, one cant afford to be bogged down with "what ifs" anymore theres too much at stake, besides Qaid dont have a say anymore so those who claim to speak for him should learn to speak for themselves or shut up.
PS: I'm with Ninja on this one.
respectfully disagree with the general philosophy. For example is is perfectly ok for Indians to bring io Nehru or Gandhi's speech while making case for what is best for the country. Correct me if I am wrong - those opposed to Jinnah also appear to be opposed to equal rights for all.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
He was the founder, of that there is no question.
But he was not the sole founder, others had thier part too, hero worship is also wrong. Yes he is Qaid E Azam but he is not awal aur akhir... nobody can say that another man cannot go further... by your logic lets also say that Bhutto was the father of masses, theres no question when it comes to democratic power Bhutto enjoyed even more support than Qaid E Azam... is Bhutto as important today? Or have people moved on?
Jinnah had it right, but that was then, and even so the man was not entirely faultless, all men make mistakes. Napolean is also the father of Modern France but people there have moved on, just like to an extent Lenin is the father of Russian democracy how times have changed... even America does not follow the steps of Washington, Jefferson or Franklin.
Pakistan wont be able to ressurect Jinnah we need to look for alternatives, I used to think Jinnah was the man who led the Nation to freedom... no he did not, he just put us on the path, freedom is yet to be achieved.
Moses led the Isrealites but it was Yusha ben Noon who completed his task, likewise there is nothing that lasts forever... if people failed Jinnah they probably aint worthy of him anyway, so they can either die or come up with something different.
I agree great ideas are immortal but that does not mean humans will always follow them, Jinnah had it right at the time, but times change even Jinnah would fail today... becuase the challenges are much greater.
So Jinnsh had it right. So why would he fail now? What would you suggest be done that is different from Jinnahs vision and why?
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
So what is your vision - if not secularism, what? If not equal rights for ALL, what? If no freedom to practise religion, what?
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
Jinnah was often told that he's mixing religion with politics. but he always maintained that he wanted A democratic Pakistan which is inspired by Islamic Ideals and principles. He believed in a state where everyone was free to go to their worship places and enjoyed same rights. I dont agree that if he was alive today. his vision wouldnt have worked. sadly, its us and our so called leaders who have failed to materialized his vision.
A quote from Mr. Jinnah
"I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of men, justice and fairly play to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State -- to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims -- Hindus, Christians, and Parsis -- but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan."***
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
part from Mr. Jinnah August 11th speech!
"If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, ... is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make. ...we must learn a lesson from this [our past experience]. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the state ... we are starting in the days when there is no discrimination between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste, or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State.... I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state."
he is just clearly saying no matter what community an individual belongs to there would be no discrimination towards any community. they will enjoy full rights as citizens of one state.
on being asked about theocratic state, this is what he said.
Question: "Will Pakistan be a secular or theocratic state?"
Mr. M.A. Jinnah: "You are asking me a question that is absurd. I do not know what a theocratic state means."
A correspondent suggested that a theocratic State meant a State where only people of a particular religion, for example, Muslims, could be full citizens and Non-Muslims would not be full citizens.
Mr. M.A. Jinnah: "Then it seems to me that what I have already said is like throwing water on duck's back (laughter). When you talk of democracy, I am afraid you have not studied Islam. We learned democracy thirteen centuries ago."
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
If countries should be obligated to forever stick to the way their founders made them, then in the USA you should still be allowed to buy black slaves.
False equivalency. The supporters of secularism have made a good case for why Jinnahs policy made sense - equal rights for all. Now if he were for enslavement you would have a point.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
Well it aint easy but it can and has been done.
Like when?
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
Oh my bad!
How did I forget Allama Aala Hazrat Ziaul Haq Rehmatullah Aleh Maddu Zillahu as being the elected, religious and spiritual leader of the Pakistani people? :D
You know what, mere mentioning Zia in response to my post is sole proof you have no idea of Pakistan, its history and its problems but you love to bring your two cents anyways.
I think if one reads and becomes a sponge for information as chai does one would definitely have an excellent idea about topic being discussed.
Re: Secular Pakistan: ‘Pakistanis should know Quaid’s Aug 11 speech by heart’
If countries should be obligated to forever stick to the way their founders made them, then in the USA you should still be allowed to buy black slaves.
While the constitution has been amended, it original character has remained in tact. The country is still secular, it still holds liberty as the corner stone of the nation.
The US actually adopted the system established by her founders and evolved within that context.
In Pakistan, Jinnahs vision was never even implemented to begin with.
In the US the words of founders are enshrined, where as in Pakistan, Jinnahs words are edited and distorted.
While in the US the system has changed and evolved, in Pakistan the system has devolved. Things that don't work in Pakistan are hardly ever thrown out, instead, they are strengthened through association with the divine.