Scientist looks for Jesus' body in India

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Saltan Toora Bhai,

Many historical flaws in your logic.

Your imply that Peter pointed out some random dude and they took him for Jesus (as) and he was executed immediately! Which is not the case!

Actually Jesus (as) was praying with the rest of his disciples in Gethsemane when the Romans came to get him! He gave himself in even though his disciples wanted to put up a fight! Afterwards he was put to trial! Where he defended all his teachings in front of a Roman Court and the high Priests of Judah. Even though highly convincing, they found him guilty and Pilate sentenced him to cross! The priests knew him very well as he had preached to them before and they had a personal grudge against him.

Now, how can a random man from the street not only defend Jesus (as) teachings but also accept his sentence to be put to cross with a prophet like humbleness. There is not even a single mention in any history, written by Jews/Christians/Romans or any secular historians where the person sentenced denied that he was Jesus but someone else.

To cover such evidence up, usually it is said that there was someone who got transformed into Jesus (as) and he instead went through crusifiction. I am surprised you do not believe as such.

Anyway, I suggest that you read some of the secular histories about Jesus (as)

It is a historical fact that the Israelites were divided into 12 tribes of which only two were in Palestine where Jesus taught his teachings! The other 10 were scattered in other lands.

The assigned Divine mission of Jesus would not have been complete, much less could it be described as successful, without his appearance among the remaining 10 tribes representing a vast majority of the Israelite people. So, after he survived crucifixion, he migrated to the lost tribes of Israel where Kashmir comes into the story! :~)

Refrence

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited March 14, 2002).]

22

[quote]
Originally posted by TOMASSO:
*One theory of Judas is that he was a militant Jew who came to the conclusion that Jesus was not going to bring about the change he sought for Judea. He was a man that might have had deep internal conflict. He wanted a savior much along the lines that many Jews still seek. Jesus came for the internal "jihad" not to be a worldly king who would overthrow the Roman yoke. *
[/quote]

I interesting that you use the term Jihad ... as the Messiah of Muslims is also accused of suspending Jihad by the militant minded Muslims. :~)

Ahh, so true is the world of the Holy Prophet (saw)!

23

Is their any evidence that negates the possibility of Jesus ever having come to India? We can be fairly certain that Pathans and Kashmiris may be descendants of Jewish tribes which migrated into the region and later converted to Islam. Its possible that if Jesus did not die on the cross, that he may have migrated with these tribes into India. There may be many reasons why he came. Truth is, we know very little about jesus the man, and biblical sources are known to be unreliable. Perhaps Jesus wanted to study the philosophy of Hindus and Buddhists. We know there was a thriving Buddhist civilization around the time. It could also have been that he wanted to move on with his life and decided the only place not under Roman rule was to the east. So its possible that he did come to India at some point in his life.

24

[quote]
Originally posted by 'The PAKI PRINCESS':
*Armughal- I suggest you know what you are talking about before u say anything.
Just because someone is raised to the heaven, that doesnt literally mean that they are there in the sky in body!
*
[/quote]

Jesus (pbuh) was raised to the heavens in BODY - he was taken up in the material form....
atleastthats what i believe as a Muslim....

"Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." **Quran(3:147)

25

this web site has lot interesting and controversial books about this subject.

http://a1.nu/christian/books/jesus.htm

26

First of all I didnt say Peter, I said Judas…the misfamed apostle when asked to identify Jesus he pointed to the person who looked like him, so this means that Romans did ask the apostle to identify the guy and that he ws not well known either in the roman court or among the high hebrew priests. Jesus won only 12 converts in his life time and he preached for only 3 years and died at 33. So what we do know comes from the new testament. Unfortunately the gospels and mathew and Luke give entirely opposite and contradictory accounts of jesus’s lives. Jesus left no writing behind. There are no historical roman documnets specially writeen about this unknown shepard. And what the hell is that thing about only 2 tribes in Israel and the rest of the 10 scattered? LOL
where the hell did that come from.
And jesus never ever claimed his preaching only for the jews alone, his preachings were universal. So he did not have this burden of finding and locating the lost tribes of Israel and going to kashmir to preach to his kin
I thought this was work of indian government, I didnt no that ahmedya folks are spreading this stuff…why would they do this?
In any event, muslims beleive that Jesus did not die, so there is no question of him having a grave anyways.

[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited March 16, 2002).]

27

I dont see anything wrong with Jesus having come to Kashmir. No reason for him not to, nor is their any reason why muslims should be averse to such a finding... its not as if its something completely heretical.
And offcourse he died, he was human, we believe he was human not somthing supernatural as Christians do, so how can any human live forever? And as far as i know, he came to teach all mankind, and there are men living in Kashmir, why wouldn't he want to come to India to teach them in his travels? Maybe he was just curious and wanted to travel to the East for the sake of gaining more knowledge. Perhaps he knew he could not teach without being crucified again and so he left, and the safest place to go would have been the east.

28

Changez_like:*actually it is very good point. DNA will not have a written word/signature saying "This body belongs to Jesus". They'll need to have DNA of other family members at least to compare and claim if it were Jesus (AH).*
Very interesting!

Can they do a DNA comparison with the blood clots on the Shroud of Turin? Now, that would be something!

I wonder what'll be the conclusion if both the DNA came out identical?

29

Ibrahim says: greetings of Peace to one and all

sorry guys, I have to reveal this to you, since some of you have been deceived to believe that Jesus died in India and the shroud is authentic.

It was establsihed in the 80’s that it was a bogus scam to make money ( like many others in christianity) , and the church had quietly, closed the chapter on it. I guess many have yet to learn.

as for jesus dying in India that is another scam, that ahmedia have to keep alive, failing which their works will come crashing down

sorry to expose the truth!

Ibrahim

get a copy of ** Discoveries from the time of Jesus** ISBN 0-7459-1207-9 published 1990 for some facts on this

THE SHROUD OF TURIN

RESEARCH AT McCRONE RESEARCH INSTITUTE

The Shroud of Turin http://www.mcri.org/Shroud.html

According to Dr. Walter McCrone and his colleagues at McCrone Associates, the 3+ by 14+ foot cloth depicting Christ’s crucified body is an inspired painting produced by a Medieval artist just before its first appearance in recorded history in 1356. The faint sepia image is made up of billions of submicron pigment particles (red ochre and vermilion) in a collagen tempera medium. Dr. McCrone determined this by polarized light microscopy in 1979. This included careful inspection of thousands of linen fibers from 32 different areas (Shroud and sample points), characterization of the only colored image-forming particles by color, refractive indices, polarized light microscopy, size, shape, and microchemical tests for iron, mercury, and body fluids. The paint pigments were dispersed in a collagen tempera (produced in medieval times, perhaps, from parchment). It is chemically distinctly different in composition from blood but readily detected and identified microscopically by microchemical staining reactions. Forensic tests for blood were uniformly negative on fibers from the blood-image tapes.

There is no blood in any image area, only red ochre and vermilion in a collagen tempera medium. The red ochre is present on 20 of both body- and blood-image tapes; the vermilion only on 11 blood-image tapes. Both pigments are absent on the 12 non-image tape fibers.

The Electron Optics Group at McCrone Associates (John Gavrilovic, Anna Teetsov, Mark Andersen, Ralph Hinsch, Howard Humecki, Betty Majewski, and Deborah Piper) in 1980 used electron and x-ray diffraction and found red ochre (iron oxide, hematite) and vermilion (mercuric sulfide); their electron microprobe analyzer found iron, mercury, and sulfur on a dozen of the blood-image area samples. The results fully confirmed Dr. McCrone’s results and further proved the image was painted twice-once with red ochre, followed by vermilion to enhance the blood-image areas.

The carbon-dating results from three different internationally known laboratories agreed well with his date: 1355 by microscopy and 1325 by C-14 dating. The suggestion that the 1532 Chambery fire changed the date of the cloth is ludicrous. Samples for C-dating are routinely and completely burned to CO2 as part of a well-tested purification procedure. The suggestions that modern biological contaminants were sufficient to modernize the date are also ridiculous. A weight of 20th century carbon equaling nearly two times the weight of the Shroud carbon itself would be required to change a 1st century date to the 14th century (see Carbon 14 graph). Besides this, the linen cloth samples were very carefully cleaned before analysis at each of the C-dating laboratories.

Experimental details on the tests carried out at McCrone Associates or the McCrone Research Institute are available in five papers published in three different peer-reviewed journal articles: Microscope 1980, 28, 105, 115; 1981, 29, 19; Wiener Berichte uber Naturwissenschaft in der Kunst 1987/1988, 4/5, 50 and Acc. Chem. Res. 1990, 23, 77-83.

** Conclusion:

The “Shroud” is a beautiful painting created about 1355 for a new church in need of a pilgrim-attracting relic.**

30

“But despite these explanations, there still remained people who insisted that the blood was not blood at all, but paint. Scientists knew that if McCrone were correct (if the bloodstains were paint) then DNA could not be present.”

more here…](http://www.tombofjesus.com/thednaofgod.htm#dna1)

CONCLUSION: the red-brown pigment on the canvas carrying DNA, speaks of itself.

===============================

ibrahim: as for jesus dying in India that is another scam, that ahmedia have to keep alive, failing which their works will come crashing down

Zalim: yaad rakho, islaam ki zindagi eesa kay mernay mein hai…

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited March 17, 2002).]

31

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says: greetings of Peace to one and all

sorry guys, I have to reveal this to you, since some of you have been deceived to believe that Jesus died in India and the shroud is authentic.

It was establsihed in the 80's that it was a bogus scam to make money ( like many others in christianity) , and the church had quietly, closed the chapter on it. I guess many have yet to learn.

as for jesus dying in India that is another scam, that ahmedia have to keep alive, failing which their works will come crashing down

sorry to expose the truth!

Tells me this, what is wrong with the idea that Jesus may have died in India? Is their something blasphemous about it? Or is it that this is a claim of Ahmedis and you hate Ahmedis to much to admit that it might even be a possibility?

32

[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:Tells me this, what is wrong with the idea that Jesus may have died in India?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: greetings of peace to one and all

Dear Brother Adnan Ahmed,

Ideas are JUST ideas ( every tome dick and harry will have one) which are derived from conjecture, ** whereas Allah(swt) does not conjecture BUT reveal the TRUTH to mankind so that he will be guided and not deceived by shaitan.**

Thus when you have knowledge of revealed scriptures, then all these idea will become absurd. But for those who lack the knowledge of scriptures ideas , conjectures theories are all well and fine for them .

What I am saying is that, Allah(swt ) knows best and Allah (swt) did not reveal the Qur’an for reading/entertainment as a pass time, but for reading and contemplating and understanding the message given therein.

Each revelations sent to mankind corrects the misconceptions invented by people before them. Thus The Bible has corrections for misconceptions found in the veda (The corrupted scrolls of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) maintained by the hindus in the Sanskrit language) and the Qur’an has corrections for misconceptions found in the Bible. ( the corrupted scrolls of Prophet Musa (pbuh) and prophet Eesa (pbuh) found in Hebrew and Greek languages maintained by jews and Christians) .

Now having understood this , when one has ample knowledge of what is written in this scriptures one may be able to piece together a picture that cannot be discounted by ideas, theories or conjecture.

It is those who do not have knowledge of the scriptures who may end up believing in ideas, theories and conjecture and Muslims should refrain from such works. Although it is permissible for the ignorant to believe in them as Allah (swt) had so allowed.

[quote]
Is their something blasphemous about it?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: It all depends on how you interpret the word blasphemous.

Blasphemous means : impiously irreverent : PROFANE

profane means:
1 : to treat (something sacred) with abuse, irreverence, or contempt : DESECRATE
2 : to debase by a wrong, unworthy, or vulgar use

impious means : not pious : lacking in reverence or proper respect (as for God or one's parents) : IRREVERENT

Ibrahim says so having understood the word one may say; that spreading falsehood should be refrained unless there is some validity for such claims, here the very fact that someone intends to produce evidence that is intended to discount TWO REVEALED scriptures can be nothing but falsehood.

I mean in the Bible as well as the Qur’an , there is nothing revealed to establish that Christ was buried anywhere on this planet but all revelations conveyed that he was raised in an extraordinary manner just as he was created in an extraordinary way.

** Unless you can establish that he was not a word that turned flesh, not a spirit from Allah (swt) and not the CHRIST that was created as a SIGN for all of mankind. Whom if you failed to believe in, cannot be a Muslim. We can find a body on this planet .**

But If you agreed he was a unique creation sent to mankind from time to time for their redirection, then NO BODY of him or TRACE of him , will be found on this planet but will appear again to redirect mankind at some future date and time till Allah (swt) has willed his final death . It is as simple as that.

[quote]
Or is it that this is a claim of Ahmedis and you hate Ahmedis to much to admit that it might even be a possibility?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : As I have shown you above, the Ahmadia claims is against what the scriptures reveals. So there can be NO “ IF’S and BUT’s ” about such matters. Scriptures will triumph in all cases in religious matters, Not ideas, claims or conjectures!

Second hating people also needs evidence one just cannot hate because they may disagree and every disagreement MUST have validity for its existence. In the case of the ahmedia they have misconceived the Qur’an and are spreading their own interpretations of the Qur’an in many languages in many isolated regions of this planet. They have a need to do such things, just like they have the need to make this issue of Christ being buried in India stick or else their ideas will come crumbing down

** It is Allah (swt) words that will triumph not man’s concoctions.**

BTW there are some 300 web sites on the net which will claim otherwise ( just for the shroud issue) , and that the shroud is genuine, so the choice is yours.
Allah (swt) knows best

hope that helps, to make things CLEAR to you and those that have been deceived by these ideas.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** you have built castles in the air. Now put some foundations under them **

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited March 17, 2002).]

33

ibrahim you have to repect people's faith
if it helps thier spirtuality.
religen is not proved in the laboratory
or reasearch instituions. thats why
people ask waht you "believe" . if "belief"
makes people happy who are we question them?

34

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear Brothers and Sisters

Let me give you my personal analysis on this cloth with the imprint of, supposedly Christ. Which is famously known as the shroud of turin

  1. This Cloth had been dated to be only 700 years old , The shroud is only known from 1350 AD to mankind prior to it no one knew it . ** Three independent tests concluded that this cloth was made from flax cut between 1260 and 1390 AD**

  2. this piece of yellowish linen is 4.34 meter ** 14 feet 3 ins LONG ** and 1.09 meters ** 3,feet 7 ins wide.**

  3. the imprint of the ** body is nearly 13 feet ** , meaning this human being ** was 13 feet in height, more or less a giant ,** in our time frame.

** For the love of God I cannot understand why they had difficulty identifying him, if he was a giant and the rest were just normal human beings with an average height of 5 to 6 feet. **

  1. http://www.tombofjesus.com/thednaofgod.htm#dna1 lets look at the imprint

http://www.tombofjesus.com/ShroudofTurin2

Take a good look at the imprint then try an experiment at home, take a doll and paint it red , while still wet, then take a piece of white cloth and wrap around it , after which look at the imprint it will have .

once you have got that over , which will surely make it clear that an imprint like this can never be obtained unless it was a paint job.

  1. I have shrouded the dead in my life and know for a fact that one piece of cloth , 3 feet in width can not possibly cover a person completely in a secure fashion. If we used it under the body, it will not be enough to cover the top, even if it did , the imprint will then have to appear at both edges of the cloth and not in the center.

In this case the imprint is in the center meaning the body was covered from the top, which means how did they manage to shroud him, fully covering the back? , if they is no piece of cloth at the bottom and where did that piece go to, if there was one?

One also need to use bandages to secure the body , head, chin, armpit etc in place and is normal custom in all shrouding, which sadly does not appear on the shroud.

Further one need to tie the cloth and such marks of the body being tied is not found nor are crease marks found on the cloth.

** Thus it only proves that this is a painting , having blood or using blood on paintings depicting blood is not an unusual thing as such the claim of DNA found by some is due to the pigments derived from an organic substance or DNA from blood being used as the paint.**

Blood stains normally turn dark brown in this case they have not, which means it is more a red pigment

  1. claims of pollen found on it makes little sense when we understand that the cloth itself, is not 2000 years old, so how did it become the shroud of a man who died 2000 year ago?

Hence sorry to disappoint all those who have been led to believe otherwise. Kindly venture down the ancient cemetery and tombs and look for 13 footers and see how many one can find, might give us the clue as to what this scam is all about.

Or ask yourself were all human beings 13 foot tall two thousand years ago? , then the cross that he must have been nailed to must have been 18 foot tall, oops ** did you know the bible says he was hanged on a tree?**

Off course those who need to belief due to their faith, may say otherwise.

Regards
Ibrahim

** you begin saving the world by saving one person at a time; all else is politics. **

35

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
**

4) I have shrouded the dead in my life and know for a fact that one piece of cloth , 3 feet in width can not possibly cover a person completely in a secure fashion. all else is politics. ** **
[/quote]

Ibrahim what do u do man. Do u shroud people???

36

[quote]
Originally posted by reza khan:
Ibrahim what do u do man. Do u shroud people???
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: LOL! All Muslims have one day to learn how to bury their dead, so If you have yet to do it, then they will surely come a time when you will have to face it, many may hide from it but Muslims in general should learn all they need to learn in life.

Simply to answer you Q, I had assisted in the burials of people and personally carried a number of human beings ( brothers/sisters unknown to me) to their resting place, hope that makes it clear for you.

37

Ibrahim Sahib,

As the argument goes both way on the authenticity of the shroud, you yourself claimed:

[quote]
BTW there are some 300 web sites on the net which will claim otherwise ( just for the shroud issue) , and that the shroud is genuine, so the choice is yours.

[/quote]

so I have no intentions to bang my head on the wall arguing with you.

Though, the fact remains, if the scientists do a DNA test on the body in the tomb at Kashmir and find it identical to the DNA found on the shroud, it proves the shroud to be authentic and the tomb in Kashmir to be of Jesus (as).

And therefore, I support to let the scientist do their work ... so the truth comes out!

[quote]
ibrahim: as for jesus dying in India that is another scam, that ahmedia have to keep alive, failing which their works will come crashing down

Zalim:** yaad rakho, islaam ki zindagi eesa kay mernay mein hai... **

[/quote]

Very true are these words if people may ponder!

38

I think DNA tests should be allowed.
I don't see why Muslims or any sect should have an objection.
After one common claim they all have is that Jesus died a natual death or something right?

39

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says: LOL! All Muslims have one day to learn how to bury their dead, so If you have yet to do it, then they will surely come a time when you will have to face it, many may hide from it but Muslims in general should learn all they need to learn in life.

Simply to answer you Q, I had assisted in the burials of people and personally carried a number of human beings ( brothers/sisters unknown to me) to their resting place, hope that makes it clear for you. **
[/quote]

The way u said that it looks as though ue quite old!!!!!!!

40

I think DNA testing should be allowed...