i have read somewhere that nikah can take place before puberty but not consumated and as soon the person hits puberty they have the right to proceed with the nikah or opt for divorce?
yes, that is correct. Again, if he/she reached puberty doesn't mean that he/she is able for sexual intercourse. Hence, it is delayed till he/she is able for it. This ruling is not only applied to young male/female, but also grown up male/female.
^because you appear to be knowledgeable can i ask something? If a trend is setting where elders are using the premission of child marriages to abuse the rights of children would it be alright to put a ban on it for a while? like i read soemwhere during famine Hazrat Umer r.a banned the penalty for theft (losing a hand).
akhee, not trying to be modest but I'm not knowledgable; a layman like yourself. As far your question, Allahu A'lam, really! We know that if a permissible act opens door to fitnah/sin and it causes more harm than good, then mujtahid scholars can issue fatwa to make it not permissible. However, such laws would only be possible to be applied if the country is somewhat ruled by shari'ah. And I have not heard about this particular action of Umar (radiAllahu anho), but I do know that for some other rulings he made his ijtihad to aviod greater fitnah and encorported them in shari'ah court of his time.
We know that this is not commonly practiced in our day of age for various reasons. In some areas (Muslim countries) where it happens, they are hardly following shari'ah and its limits. The scholars have stated that such marriages should only be done when the benefit outwiegh the risk by long shot. For example, the marriage of Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam): there was great hikmah (wisdom) and fathyl (benefit) in his marriage with Aishah (radiAllahu anha). Hence, we follow his (sal-allahu 'alayhi salam) sunnah.
it is sad that you put forward such flawed reasoning. Doesn't Qur'an say that believers can only have 4 wives at once and more than 4 wives is only for the Prophet? Where is evidence that this action (marriage to Aishah - may Allah be pleased with her) of Prophet (peace be upon him) was only for him and not general?
It was according to the norm and society of those days to get married at a young age, but Prophet(SAW) only lived with her when she was an adult, also before the Prophet proposed to her, she was being pursued by Jubair ibn Mut`am, indicates that she was mature enough for marriage.
it means that you cannot cause harm to others and this is what scholars have understood for centuries. If you don't believe me, go check with your sufi scholars. When did I say that this hadith state that your can have nikaah with young male/female? I said this hadith is the evidence for not having sexual intercourse with your spouse if he/she is not able for it (causes him/her physical or pyscological harm).
yes, as the ruling is general and applicable to both genders.
Before everyone else go crazy:
this ruling is limited to being permissible and scholars have put conditions on it. Everyone can't go around and start doing it to fulfill their desires.
and Allah knows best
you are so rude.
Would you care explaining those conditions?
The main purpose of marriage is to protect yourself from fahsha. In Traditional Islam the condition for marriage is not based on age but the mental and phsical maturity and capability of a person.
Here's an excerpt from Islamonline about early marriages:
The father of a girl must not delay marriage of his daughter if a proposal is received from a compatible man of equal status who is of sound religion and character. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Three matters should not be delayed: prayer when its time comes, burial when the funeral has arrived, and the marriage of a single woman when a well-suited man has proposed." (Reported by at-Tirmidhi)
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) addressed the youths encouraging them to get married as soon as they are capable of shouldering the responsipility of marriage saying: “O youth! Whoever amongst you is able to marry, let him marry, because it helps him keep his eyes away from lustful looks and preserve his chastity. And whoever is not able to marry, let him observe fasting, as it is a shield for him (i.e. protection from lapsing in fornication).”
Early marriage doesn't mean that the spouses could be not mature and responsible, the Qur'an hints saying: "If you find them of sound judgement." (An-Nisa': 6) That means puberty or marriageable age is not enough to be qualified for marriage. If a son is capable to run a household life and he is able to maitain mentally, psychologically and financially and everything of his wife, then early marriage is the only way to keep our children away from haram.
Re: Saudis rethinking on Tribal traditions of child marriage
There was a time when it was a norm to marry young people who used to become mature and capable quite early, even in the West people were being married at 10-12 but it was the time when women aged 10-12 were graduated and men aged 14-15 were earning. Now a days, a 16 years old hardly finishes his high-school.
Re: Saudis rethinking on Tribal traditions of child marriage
Sorry for teh earlier editing as i wanted to make sure what i was writing is true.
Brother righteous how about Fatwa of Imam Khomeini about kissing and sexually touching a child less than 9 years being allowed if she is married to adult?
Re: Saudis rethinking on Tribal traditions of child marriage
umm arent you guys jumping at Allah ka ... for a weird reason. All he is saying is the marriage is allowed between children but not to be consumated, when they come of age they have a right to follow through or pull out, its a like a rishta fixing thing that many people do. Also he already has said that he doesnt know what the ijtehad could deliver if this practise was carried out to purposely sell daughters or harm children for ulterior motives. so what am i missing?
Re: Saudis rethinking on Tribal traditions of child marriage
^ Peace Croquet
Without going in to the topic too much is it not even weirder that Saudi have adjusted the law of child marriage on the basis that children are not responsible enough to make contracts therefore nikkah being a contract children cannot be married? If this reasoning is sound then the hadith has been misunderstood and misrepresented for centuries.
What we need is consistency ... are Saudi right or wrong for changing the law and if they are wrong then do we seriously allow a pointless practice of child nikkah to proliferate?
This is where some people have gone wrong either intentionally or not ... some hadith are markers for the limits in Islam and others are recommendations for something to be practiced regularly. The areas and regions which practice young marriages are such areas of people who have turned a limit into a desirable and recommended practice without due thought or authority to do so. Hence you come up with the problems we see. This is only on the basis that the said hadith is correctly interpreted.
If however the said hadith is incorrectly interpreted then we have other issues.
Re: Saudis rethinking on Tribal traditions of child marriage
^couldnt it be that hadith was understood well enough however recently the practise has been blatantly used to abuse children's right therefore any ijtehad might be called onto examine the situation? i mean different time periods can call for re examination of situation?
I'm going to apologize in advance for multiple posts
^^
One simple question to you.
Would you marry off your daughter or sister who is 6 years to a 60 year old pious muslim man.
A simple yes or no answer would do.
don't try to get ahead of yourself by putting forward emotional questions and overlooking all that I've said. btw, are you a Muslim, because my answer depends on your belief?
Without going in to the topic too much is it not even weirder that Saudi have adjusted the law of child marriage on the basis that children are not responsible enough to make contracts therefore nikkah being a contract children cannot be married? If this reasoning is sound then the hadith has been misunderstood and misrepresented for centuries.
first of all we don't know whether Saudis are really going to do that. This is coming from a modernist without any hard evidence. Even if agree for sake of argument, their reasoning doesn't prove that hadith have been misunderstood when we know that scholars can make ijtihad to make someting impermissible to aviod greater harm and fitnah.
side note: I'm not suprised to note that no one here is screaming out of their lungs that "look wahabis are going against the Qur'an and hadith" like people did in case of saudis not allowing women to derive. Why are we not doing the same for this case? Why the double standards? The reason is simple because the modernists buy whatever pleases the kufaar and whatever they think makes them fit with the society.
do we seriously allow a pointless practice of child nikkah to proliferate?
how is it a pointless practice? Are you saying that for millenia people have been practicing this pointless norm, but suddenly we became "educated" and "civilized" within last century and we realized that it is a "barbaric" practice?
This is where some people have gone wrong either intentionally or not ... some hadith are markers for the limits in Islam and others are recommendations for something to be practiced regularly. The areas and regions which practice young marriages are such areas of people who have turned a limit into a desirable and recommended practice without due thought or authority to do so. Hence you come up with the problems we see. This is only on the basis that the said hadith is correctly interpreted.
agreed upon and this is exactly what I've been trying to say
If however the said hadith is incorrectly interpreted then we have other issues.
there is no evidence for this
Re: Saudis rethinking on Tribal traditions of child marriage
I think Saudis have realised that Child Marriages are not practical, well not anymore but it looks like they're just obeying their " American Masters" because the age limit should have been 14 for girls rather 18.
It was according to the norm and society of those days to get married at a young age
I've already addressed the similar arguments in my first three posts, so please answer my arguments instead of bringing the refuted arguments again; however, for sake of benefit of Muslims:1 - The norm is millenia old and suddenly vanished within last century when the modernists/liberalists appear and started their commotion about moral "progression" for better, which in fact led to bankruptcy and decay of morality. They call for "civilized, modern, liberal, un-barbaric and un-backward" world. That's why I'm inclined to conclude that shame on you modernists for calling your ancestors "backward, barbaric, uneducated, uncivilized" despite the fact that you're enjoying the fruits and seeds they planted to make society a better place.
2 - Where did these cultural norms originate from? The source of all original laws is Allah Ta'ala and Islam, as I explained in my 3rd post in this thread. When did Islam introduce its laws based on cultural norms? When did Islam incorporated cultural norms in its laws? How does this being a cultural norm prove that it is not part of Islamic ruling; thus, we should abandon it now as norm has changed? Is Islam not for all time?
3 - Do you have a sharee' evidence that this practice of Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) was only for his time? Any classical scholar to backup this claim? Why was this norm acceptable back then and not now? Why was this norm banished to begin with?
4 - If we follow your logic then it means we should abandon other sharee' laws as well because today it is not the norm to stone/flog adulterer, kill apostate, death penalty for murderers (some countries have abandoned it). Why don't abandon these as well, as this was norm back then and not now?
she was being pursued by Jubair ibn Mut`am, indicates that she was mature enough for marriage.
I never said anything about her not being mature at the time of consummation, nor I said you can consummate marriages with immature girls. So please stop putting words in my mouth or implying as If I've stated such arguments. As far Jubair's case, this is not proven authentically. I remember even your Shaykh GF Haddad covered this
you are so rude.
how exactly? Or is this another on of your accusation against me? Sister, we both know the end result of our discussion from past experience. The fact of the matter is that despite what I present, the sharee' evidence and understanding of classical scholars, you are not going to buy it. Why? Because in your eyes I'm a "deviant extremists wahabi". However, you'll buy what your sufi scholars say even if they present no evidence for it. This is nothing but ta'ssub. Therefore, because you don't believe me then ask your scholars.
Would you care explaining those conditions?
already did as the Salaf explained:
The main purpose of marriage is to protect yourself from fahsha. In Traditional Islam the condition for marriage is not based on age but the mental and phsical maturity and capability of a person.
and your point is? can you show me anywhere that I went against this? Your argument would only have any leg to stand on if I contradicted it. You're saying traditional Islam as if by taking the side of modernists, you are presenting the traditional view.
There was a time when it was a norm to marry young people who used to become mature and capable quite early, even in the West people were being married at 10-12 but it was the time when women aged 10-12 were graduated and men aged 14-15 were earning. Now a days, a 16 years old hardly finishes his high-school.
Hope you understand this Allahkaybanday.
The reason is simple, because the societies have been morally decade and bankrupted within last century. What happened to millenia old norm? Why did it suddenly vanish in thin air within last century. Why should I follow the new norm? How does changes in norm prove that we need to bring changes in Islamic laws?
1 - Whether modernist or liberal humanists, their objections against laws of Islam, whether child marriage or flogging an adulterer, are based upon modern standards/principles and their doctrine of evolution in morality. In layman's terms, they believe that there should be evolution in morality. However, in order to prove their case they need to prove 2 things: a) that there SHOULD be evolution in morality and b) we in fact have morally evolved for better. Until they can, and never will be able to, prove this, their views remain morally bankrupted and oppressive to societies.
2 - For example in case of child marriage they say that our norm have changed and people are not mature, etc. They deem or regard Islamic ruling as unfeasible now because the societies have changed and morally decayed within last century. Due to the compounded ignorance of modern societies, the age of responsibility rose from 10,11,12 to 18 and even at 18 many of them do not learn responsibility until much later. For not preparing people at early age to take responsibilities is nothing but oppressions, and an evidence for this is social problems within our societies.
3 - Again, regarding child marriages, why one should follow modern inconsistent laws/norms? Their flawed methodology and reasoning can be refuted by disagreement among themselves and contradictory laws. In one country it is moral to marry a 14 years old girl/boy but in another country it is immoral and crime, and he/she will be labeled as 'pedophile'. How can anyone follow such inconsistent/contradictory methodology?
and Allah knows best
I'm going to conclude this by following points:
1 - Whether modernist or liberal humanists, their objections against laws of Islam, whether child marriage or flogging an adulterer, are based upon modern standards/principles and their doctrine of evolution in morality. In layman's terms, they believe that there should be evolution in morality. However, in order to prove their case they need to prove 2 things: a) that there SHOULD be evolution in morality and b) we in fact have morally evolved for better. Until they can, and never will be able to, prove this, their views remain morally bankrupted and oppressive to societies.
2 - For example in case of child marriage they say that our norm have changed and people are not mature, etc. They deem or regard Islamic ruling as unfeasible now because the societies have changed and morally decayed within last century. Due to the compounded ignorance of modern societies, the age of responsibility rose from 10,11,12 to 18 and even at 18 many of them do not learn responsibility until much later. For not preparing people at early age to take responsibilities is nothing but oppressions, and an evidence for this is social problems within our societies.
3 - Again, regarding child marriages, why one should follow modern inconsistent laws/norms? Their flawed methodology and reasoning can be refuted by disagreement among themselves and contradictory laws. In one country it is moral to marry a 14 years old girl/boy but in another country it is immoral and crime, and he/she will be labeled as 'pedophile'. How can anyone follow such inconsistent/contradictory methodology?
and Allah knows best
Because you cannot force your acceptabilities on others. Marriage at an early age is acceptable and encouraged in Islam but its not a law that you have to get married before this age. How many girls you know in your family who are ready for marriage at 12?
Re: Saudis rethinking on Tribal traditions of child marriage
Btw if you like the child marriage country then move there.
Not every act of Prophet(SAW) is Sunnah, for example, he married more than four women at a time, marriage is a contract between a husband and wife and you can't contract with a child who doesn't even know what marriage is all about.
When the greatest scholars ever produced by human history ie Saudi Scholars say anything , it is 100% correct and every muslim of the world is obliged to listen them as they are the greatest schoalsr of all times who dont care for 12 12 years girls but more think about 72 virgins and say , put a belt and press the button and and get 72 instead of 1
