Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

[Verizon]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

Hmmm so the plot thickens, these muslims boy I tell ya, bribed and gave generous bonuses for people to convert. So a righteous hindu that refused to convert was not given a bonus but a weak hindu that converted was given a big bonus.

M_S please dont take any offense to my "weak hindu" part. My ancestors were slaughtered by muslims right after my great great great... great grandfather shipjacked a boat full of hajis. My ancestory is derived from Raja Dahir (and it is documented as well), he was a hindu, but his sons/grandsons were spared if they converted, they did, but using legal wrangling we kept the "Raja" title just tacked a muslim sounding last name.

[Seminole]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

I have a hard time believing slavery is wonderful because it is responsible for changing an ancestors' religion or helped a family climb the social ladder. That's like praising the Taliban for keeping security through torture, murder, intimidation and oppression. Do the ends justify the means? There are other ways to get the outcome desired that would please God and don't require the enslavement of others. In the case of finding the right religion - through etheral means and spiritual development. To get out of the milking the cow business - education and hard work.

[Madhanee]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

That too. Another reason to be grateful for slavery … it made my ancestors along my paternal line of descent into Muslims.

I am training to become a Mirasi (Khan Madhanee Khan of Dili Gharana – Khan is a title for high caliber Mirasi – or Musician), and all the north Indian classical musicians that I personally know still practice the faith of their ancestors and are proud of it (except for those Mirasis who settled in Pakistan). They all tell us that their ancestors converted to Islam just to get jobs at the Royal Courts of Moghual rulers. If you were not a Muslim, you can forget getting even a non-decent job. The Tuwaifs (courtesan dancers) also were Muslim.

This is pretty much how most of the Islam was spread in the Indian sub-continent.

Mohay Panghat pay Nand Lal Chayr Gayo ray
Mohi Nazik Kalaya ko MoR gayo ray
Mohay Panghat pay Nand Lal…..

[gupguppy]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

@Seminole

That’s like praising the Taliban for keeping security through torture, murder, intimidation and oppression. Do the ends justify the means?

millions said/are saying the same about the US neo-cons raping Iraq

[Seminole]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

Actually millions of Iraqis shias were being raped way before the US got there, but the majority of Muslims weren't listening. Just in case you really aren't being sarcastic and really don't know the difference - the US is establishing the opportunity for Iraqis to live in a free and representative country. The Taliban were establishing a theocratic oppressive regime.

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

@Seminole

I have a hard time believing slavery is wonderful because it is responsible for changing an ancestors’ religion or helped a family climb the social ladder. That’s like praising the Taliban for keeping security through torture, murder, intimidation and oppression. Do the ends justify the means? There are other ways to get the outcome desired that would please God and don’t require the enslavement of others. In the case of finding the right religion - through etheral means and spiritual development. To get out of the milking the cow business - education and hard work.

The American experience of slavery was very different to that experienced by my family, and indeed through much of the Muslim world - because the definition of what slavery was varied.

In several mideival Muslim states, the ruler would assign a slave to be his Grand Vizier (Prime Minister). The doctors attending him would be his slaves, his bodyguards would be his slaves, the generals commanding his army would be his slaves… Slavery, whilst fundamentally stripping human beings of their freedom and thus strongly disliked by Islamic religious leaders today, was also a relationship based on trust, sharing of wealth and power, and respect for well-being.

Personally, I’m thinking that my parents made a mistake in removing the “Ghulam” (slave) part from the names in my family. I intend to restore it with my children, because being enslaved was such a great thing for my family and I think it’s a pity to let future generations forget it.

[gupguppy]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

@Seminole

The Taliban were establishing a theocratic oppressive regime.

sounds like Bush foreign policy

[ChannMahi]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

@Madhanee

Channji, I will be your slave forever.

and I promise I will treat you justly as my God wanted it.

[lahori_bhai]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

Well, are you saying that slavery is not halal? That those early Muslims who held slaves were all sinning? That the Quran and hadith deny slavery to be halal? I challenge you to produce one verse from the Quran or from the hadith that states slevery is either not halal or is outright haraam.

What you can say truthfully, however, is that slavery is allowed but actively and strongly discouraged. That is why the overwhelming majority of scholars do not support the reintroduction of slavery - it had been successfully wiped out over time and they believe it would be more pleasing to Allah if it is not reintroduced ever again.

For all intents and purposes, i believe that slavery and Mutah (or temporary marriage) is not allowed or Haram.
The Prophet may not have specifically banned them like alcohol but it has been strongly discouraged and i interpret it as Haram.

Throughout history, change has always been resisited and that is why islam also banned alcohol in small increments such as initially forbidding alcohol before praying, and later it was banned outright.

[rvikz]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

can pakistanis take arabs as slavesmakethem work in punjab farms?

[Sara516]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

@lahori_bhai

Al-Fawzan?s most famous book, ‘Al-Tawheed- Monotheism’, is taught to Saudi high school students. In it, he says that most Muslims are polytheists, and their blood and money are therefore free for the taking by ‘true Muslims.’

Among Al-Fawzan’s other controversial beliefs is the right to ban the marriage of Arab women to non- Arab Muslims, according to his book ‘Al-Mulkhas Al-Fiqhee’ (‘Digest of Law’). He has also issued a fatwa forbidden the watching of TV.

Sorry oftopic but… is this guy smoking crap? What kinda crap is this ? Are people actually listening to him??? :yukh:

[Wise_One]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

@Verizon

Hmmm so the plot thickens, these muslims boy I tell ya, bribed and gave generous bonuses for people to convert. So a righteous hindu that refused to convert was not given a bonus but a weak hindu that converted was given a big bonus.

think of it this way somebody joins your religion he becomes your brother, by aiding him your intentions are to please Allah, i fail to see what is wrong with that?? This was used by even early muslims Porphet SAW was very generous and that attracted alot of people towards islam. The method is that you attract people and then educate them about islam. I dont believe that most people in financial difficulties or poverty stricken folks would enjoy a sermon. Its funny how you twist things around.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

Slavery from what I've read of it Islamically, seems a better life than what today's maasis lead in KHI.

And don't bother pulling a definition from dictionary dot com or Websters. Man makes definitions and connotations of words, the dictionary only standardizes it. Websters didn't think of the Quran when writing that definition, I'm sure.

Read the Quran first, and tell me what it says about slavery that would make you think slavery in Islam is inhuman?

BTW Slavery was abolished in the USA mainly because of all the inhuman practices that went along with it. And even if you took the abuses out of USA slavery, it would still not be as humane as the Islamic version of it.

And yes, it does seem illogical to allow something in the Quran that is looked down upon, and should be abolished away. But I'm sure God saw the new world order coming around in a few centuries, and I'm sure He knew humans would be intelligent enough to take care of the problem. :)

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

Oh by the way, doesn't the Quran also have a line along the lines of "If they wish to be set free, then set the slaves free" or something like that? I remember there being an encouraging line that involved setting a slave free.

[ChannMahi]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

@PyariCgudia

Read the Quran first, and tell me what it says about slavery that would make you think slavery in Islam is inhuman?

since you are minority holding the view that “slavery is good” why don’t you quote from Qoran and let us know the benefits of it. Who knows may be some of us will submit to you and want to live as your slaves.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

Sure, no prob Bob:

It is not righteousness that you turn your faces toward East or West; but it is righteousness . . . to spend of your substance . . . for the ransom of slaves. (2:177)

Never should a Believer kill a Believer; but (if it so happens) by mistake, (compensation is due): if one (so) kills a Believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family . . . For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah. (4:92)

Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons . . . or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. (5:89)

Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); . . . for those in bondage and in debt . . . (9:60)

But for those who divorce their wives . . . then wish to go back on the words they uttered, - (it is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: this you are admonished to perform . . . And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two months consecutively before they touch each other. But if any is unable to do so, he should feed sixty indigent ones. (58:3-4)

Verily We have created Man into toil and struggle. . . . And what will explain to you the path that is steep? - (It is:) freeing the bondman . . . (90:4-13)

Emancipation of slaves was encouraged thru marriage. Not to start another "Can you have sex with your slave" type thread, but if the Quran is read in context, you'll see that people were encouraged to bring people out of slavery by marrying them.

"The believers must (eventually) win through, - Those who . . . abstain from sex, except those joined to them in the marriage bond" (23:1-6) is an indictment against sex with slaves.

"[T]hey may wed [believers] from among those whom your right hands possess," the Qur'an tells us (4:25)

"Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among your slaves, male or female" (24:32).

If slaves and freepersons are equal for marriage, then they are equal in other ways.

And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if you know any good in them; yes, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. (24:33)

Now this above ayah is what I like to call a "BAM-WHAM" ayah. :D

Notice the last line here - it says to give something you have which actually God gave you. So ownership in Islam, especially over slaves, is something temporary, not permanent. So dude, if you have a house and a car - be sure to thank God for it. ;)

Allah has bestowed His gifts of sustenance more freely on some of you than on others: those more favored are not going to throw back their gifts to those whom their right hands possess, so as to be equal in that respect. Will they then deny the favors of Allah? (16:71)

Another BAM-WHAM!

Serve Allah . . . and do good - to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the way-farer (you meet), and what your right hands possess * . . . (4:36)

This is just some stuff to munch on.*

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

Slavery in Islam

Has good links to essays that you can read for further info. Cheers.

[system]

Re: Saudis are advocating that slavery is Halal?

Guys, guys, guys...religious beliefs were supposed to educate and civilize its adherents and make society a better place for tomorrow. If dispicable practices such as slavery were ever tolerated it was bcos of the then deeprooted traditions. BUT, idea of Islamic teachings was to reform society where slavery would not exist or be tolerated.

Its all about mindsets. Concepts preached and advocated by these fanatics are slaves to their past and ancestoral heritage. Any fair minded citizen of this world can tell u how repulsive the concept of slavery is.