Saudi Enlightened behavior.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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What i don't understand is, that those people who oppose Saudi, how can they be so pro-US at the same time?!

Is the US not striving to improve realtions with Saudi all the time? On what grounds? For what reason?

Why does the US not break it's ties with Saudi? A hint of hypocracy somewhere perhaps?

So who is the greater evil? Can it be the US who chums up to the Saudis whenver it needs a favour? And oil?

Selfish and self centred? The Americam way of life? As long as they keep the US citizens happy at home, all the injustice and persecution they influence or choose to over-look around the world doesn't matter - just as long as they get what they want?

So many questions. So many conclusions. Not enough answers.

USA: liberty of silence over foreign policy of mass destruction!

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what can i say you took the words right out my mouth :smooth:

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Thank you. That was much needed. :k:

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Question for all these schizo "American Muslims"

You with Bush or the Muslims?

no long winded answers just tell the truth YES with muslims or NO not on side of muslims will do and no beating around the bush :p

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I got Ak47 back on this. You lived in the US for 30 years, thus you dont have the culture shock that all immigrants have to deal with. That is a major issue, as you feel as comfortable in a pair of jeans as you do in an S&K. You look at it from the perspective of one who does not know the hardship people face in pakistan. They come to the US for economic reasons not political or social or religious reasons.

[quote]
And frankly, I'm so happy these people ARE IN PRISON AND ARE BEING DEPORTED!!!
[/quote]

I find that statement morally repugnant. You hold no values at all? Imagine what the family of the individual is going through? Imagine what injustices of psychological trauma the detained individual must be going through. Ironic isnt it that if the US had not opened its boards to WW2 victims, Einstein would also be one of these "deported individuals". You seem to hold no moral values sacred at all.

Honestly you show no compassion or tolerance for these poor people, who are in jail for 1 year now for no legal crime or without a court trial. Remember Compassion and Tolerance are the prime traits of any good muslim. Sadly you lack in both departments.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CM: *
Remember Compassion and Tolerance are the prime traits of any good muslim. Sadly you lack in both departments.
[/QUOTE]

CM who the hell are you to judge? you should be ashamed of yourself.

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*Originally posted by Hasnain: *
**What i don't understand is, that those people who oppose Saudi, how can they be so pro-US at the same time?!

Is the US not striving to improve realtions with Saudi all the time? On what grounds? For what reason? **

you are equating two completely different things here. One can have issues with US foriegn policy as well as issues with how people are treated in saudi Arabia. Thats a real tangent..

one can be very pro-us in the quality of life here overall, and be a critic of the foreign policy. both are not linked.

If we are talkign about issue of how minorities, foriegn workers are treated in saudi arabia, you may want to read up a bit.

*Selfish and self centred? The Americam way of life? As long as they keep the US citizens happy at home, all the injustice and persecution they influence or choose to over-look around the world doesn't matter - just as long as they get what they want? *

Name one nation that is not selfish and self centered. Are Saudis? are Pakistanis? are Indians, Chinese? fact is everyone watches out for their interests. you can wiggle out of this by brining in foriegn policy and foriegn relations of governments. But the subject under discussion is treatment of foriegners in Saudi Arabia.

There is no altruistic country..period. Lets focus back on how countries treat visitors, immigrants and minorities in their own countries. KSA is a pretty messed up country in that regard.

*USA: liberty of silence over foreign policy of mass destruction! *

Again, you assumption that people who are satisfied with their quality of life do not question the policies of their government. myopic view.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CM: *
I find that statement morally repugnant. You hold no values at all? Imagine what the family of the individual is going through? Imagine what injustices of psychological trauma the detained individual must be going through. Ironic isnt it that if the US had not opened its boards to WW2 victims, Einstein would also be one of these "deported individuals". You seem to hold no moral values sacred at all.

Honestly you show no compassion or tolerance for these poor people, who are in jail for 1 year now for no legal crime or without a court trial. Remember Compassion and Tolerance are the prime traits of any good muslim. Sadly you lack in both departments.
[/QUOTE]

CM, you may look up what the immigration policy of USA was before 9/11 and why so many illegal immigrants were within USA borders. Consider some of the proposals to integerat illegal immigrants into USA were on the table ( When Vicente Fox and Bush got togather before 9/11 ). Then USA woke up to the fact that some of these immigrants were harboring notions of recreating a fictional Empire and killing Americans. Unfortunately right now USA needs to bring its borders and immigration policy under control. I just signed a petition asking that USA should stop ALL immigration for atleast 5 years so a coherent immigration policy can be arrived at. Why don't you address how the champion of muslim policy, the Wahabbis and the Salafis of KSA have been treating muslims for the poorer countries and their treatment of Non muslims? I totally agree with PCG!

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *

CM who the hell are you to judge? you should be ashamed of yourself.
[/QUOTE]

Empty under the dome, why do you care? You think Journalist who go into a hot spot and die deserve it. Ashamed? I am not because i am right.

Now the beauty of Old Lahori's statement. He himself was an immigrant decades ago. If he were targetted as an immigrant today he would be fuming at such a proposal the very one he signed.

Ironic isnt it, immigrants of yester-years forget how they got in and cause problems for the people who want to follow in their footsteps. Instead of hoping for the betterment of all people they wish to cause problems for them.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

you are equating two completely different things here. One can have issues with US foriegn policy as well as issues with how people are treated in saudi Arabia. Thats a real tangent..
[/quote]

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it is a tangent. However, if the US is so proud of it's democratic system and goes around shouting "democracy this" and "democracy that" etc. why is it so friendly with Saudi, the "undemocratic" state?

[quote]
Originally posted by Fraudz:
**
If we are talkign about issue of how minorities, foriegn workers are treated in saudi arabia, you may want to read up a bit.**
[/quote]

I know how they are treated. I too have lived there.

[quote]
Originally posted by Fraudz:
**
Name one nation that is not selfish and self centered. Are Saudis? are Pakistanis? are Indians, Chinese? fact is everyone watches out for their interests. you can wiggle out of this by brining in foriegn policy and foriegn relations of governments. But the subject under discussion is treatment of foriegners in Saudi Arabia.**
[/quote]

You are right, all nations tend to be self centred. But US is the only one that interferes on such a regular basis by trying to spread its culture and influence in other nations - an attempt to 'Americanise' the world! After all, it controls the world's media, then why shouldn't it try manipulate minds? It has spread its pride and arrogance through its channels to the viewers. Go today, look at the youth on the streets of Saudi. They are trying to be 'American like': dressing up like them; acting like them; impersonating them etc etc. Houses are decaying and about to crumble, but there is new satellite dish on every roof top.

Then how can we expect the Saudis to treat the foreigners with respect, when the US media is teaching them something else?

If you travel to places like Qasim and 'Unayzah, why is it that the people are amongst the friendliest and hospitable you will have ever met? They don't care where you're from and what colour you are, they will literally shower you with their kindness and generosity, no matter how rich or poor. I have personally experienced this, Alhamdulillaah. And you will not find a single satellite dish in 'Unayzah.

If there is an illness, then you must go to the root of the illness. There's not much point of complaining about it while hanging off the branches.

regards

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CM, you may distort statements however you like. I post below how the Champion of Muslims, the Kindom of Saudi Arabia treats immigrants. As far as I can understand your reponse, it is how dare US try to make sense out of its immigration policy. At the present moment, US does not have full control over its immigration … period. That is why only last month it was reported that about 100 visas were issued to people from the middle east who are on the CIA watch list!! When congress has decided how to proceed on immigration, then USA should proceed with legal immigration. Again try to address the issue of how the members of OIC handle immigration and their treatment of non-muslims. Looking in the mirror is a little harder than always blaming and yelling against US.

S Arabia held 20,000 illegal foreigners during Ramazan

RIYADH: Saudi police arrested about 20,400 foreign nationals during the Muslim fasting month of Ramazan for staying illegally in the kingdom, a security official was quoted as saying Sunday.

Colonel Fahd al-Wathainani, head of the Expatriates Department in the Red Sea city of Jeddah, told Al-Iqtisadia business daily the arrests were part of a crackdown on illegal residents in the holy city of Mecca. The arrests were carried out between early November and early December.

All those arrested were Asians and Africans who had entered Saudi Arabia to perform umrah, or the minor pilgrimage, and failed to leave. More than 19,700 of those arrested were deported to their home countries. The government has launched a campaign to reduce the numbers of foreigners working in Saudi Arabia who are estimated at seven million.

According to interior ministry officials, Saudi Arabia deports more than 700,000 illegal immigrants every year. Illegal foreigners are deported while landlords renting accommodation to them face prison terms and fines.

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Your sense of things is nonsense. My states are in regard to the sentiments displayed and encouraged by those immigrants that have been integrated to a society and yet wish to exclude their own people from that society. We have a term for that. Wonder what it is called? We can get back on track here, but i will say this one last thing.

You were an immigrant. Now you are "naturalised" and it is all good. You dont allow other immigrants the same possibility by signing that declaration. That is neither compassionate or tolerant. Rather it is very selfish.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CM: *
Your sense of things is nonsense. My states are in regard to the sentiments displayed and encouraged by those immigrants that have been integrated to a society and yet wish to exclude their own people from that society. We have a term for that. Wonder what it is called? We can get back on track here, but i will say this one last thing.

You were an immigrant. Now you are "naturalised" and it is all good. You dont allow other immigrants the same possibility by signing that declaration. That is neither compassionate or tolerant. Rather it is very selfish.

[/QUOTE]

I am not naturalised. I was born here. My parents came to this country. What do you mean my own people? I am among my people. I signed the petition to say that Congress should review immigration policy and consciously set guidelines that are appropriate for now. Again not a word about immigration policies by the Champion of the Muslims, the Kindom of Saudi Arabia, not a word about how 'your' people treat foriegners and especially non-muslims. Why?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by OldLahori: *

I am not naturalised. I was born here. My parents came to this country. What do you mean my own people?
[/QUOTE]

That exactly my point. You were an immigrant one way or another. Yet you sign a document that in the past would not have allowed your family to come to the US. Why is that? My sole point in this whole thread is that those who wish to limit immigrants, do the same thing that would have stopped them from becoming Americans in the past. Why the hypocrascy.

As for Saudi. Everybody knows my opinion of them.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *

america da sher

small prejudice hmmm intresting i don;t think so small it blatant

as for letting americans using masjid or hall maybe you forget what that other american chamchaa busharaff let america use everything in pakistan bases, offices, airports,complexes, communications, even maybe hes nanis kitchen ;)
[/QUOTE]

LoL, your feeble jihadi brain missed my entire point. Do you even live in america? We are so quick quick to point the finger at everyone else, but never at ourselves. Our record at treating minorities fairly isnt something to brag about

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*Originally posted by Hasnain: *

*You are right, all nations tend to be self centred. But US is the only one that interferes on such a regular basis by trying to spread its culture and influence in other nations - an attempt to 'Americanise' the world! *

People may say the same abouyt Saudi Arabia exporting its wahabism to all countries, on a regular basis for some time.

Even if there is a "cultural export" going on, why do people only look at cheesy high school movies and start emulating those people. what about the other parts of american culture. the work ethic, the importance of individual initiative and innovation?

*After all, it controls the world's media, then why shouldn't it try manipulate minds? It has spread its pride and arrogance through its channels to the viewers. Go today, look at the youth on the streets of Saudi. They are trying to be 'American like': dressing up like them; acting like them; impersonating them etc etc. Houses are decaying and about to crumble, but there is new satellite dish on every roof top. *

But is that an american problem? Ultimately a nation's destiny is in its own hands.

The youth can try to be more american like and produce Bill Gates, and Larry Ellisons and Michael Dells. Nobel prize winners, scientists with breakthough research.

There are losers in US and there are losers in Saudi Arabia, cultural decay etc is a whole diff topic though.

*Then how can we expect the Saudis to treat the foreigners with respect, when the US media is teaching them something else? *

Saudis did not treat forigners with respect when they had one Tv station which ran from 5 to 11 p.m. words like rafeeq, sadeeq, miskin are hurled all the time.

Anyone recall the treatment to foriegners at the airports. I mean they kissed american and european feet but ever seen how pakistanis, Indians, egyptians and filipino were treated?

*I have personally experienced this, Alhamdulillaah. And you will not find a single satellite dish in 'Unayzah. *

what explained the widespread lameness before "satellite dish" ?

again the premise of this post was not average joe people, but public policy and government institutions. if people are not able to practice their faith, or have their religious books or items with them, what kind of "respect" is that?

*If there is an illness, then you must go to the root of the illness. There's not much point of complaining about it while hanging off the branches. *

Yes and the illness is blaming everyone but oneself for all the troubles, challenges and problems.

Saudis should learn to give people the type of respect they expect themselves overseas, stop treating forigners like second class citizens,, oops no, you can not become a citizen..allow women to drive. Thet whole system there needs to grow up.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CM: *
Your sense of things is nonsense. My states are in regard to the sentiments displayed and encouraged by those immigrants that have been integrated to a society and yet wish to exclude their own people from that society. We have a term for that. Wonder what it is called? We can get back on track here, but i will say this one last thing.

You were an immigrant. Now you are "naturalised" and it is all good. You dont allow other immigrants the same possibility by signing that declaration. That is neither compassionate or tolerant. Rather it is very selfish.

[/QUOTE]

I suppose one can differntiate a little between legal and illegal immigrants.

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Personal insults :nono: and :topic:

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Originally posted by Fraudz

*People may say the same abouyt Saudi Arabia exporting its wahabism to all countries, on a regular basis for some time. *

What is "wahabism"?

*But is that an american problem? Ultimately a nation's destiny is in its own hands. *

Yes, i agree, it mostly is. But why did September 11 become a world problem all of a sudden? Outside forces can also play an influence, can they not?

*The youth can try to be more american like and produce Bill Gates, and Larry Ellisons and Michael Dells. Nobel prize winners, scientists with breakthough research. *

Bill who? How many Saudi children do you think have heard of that name? The US does not wish to educate others in a way that might advance them ahead of the US. It would much rather spread it's culture through manipulation of the minds while flogging the world its Microsoft products before they can even think of becoming technically independant.

*Anyone recall the treatment to foriegners at the airports. I mean they kissed american and european feet but ever seen how pakistanis, Indians, egyptians and filipino were treated? *

This is exactly my point. I'm glad you made it. This is precisely what the US and Europe wish for. This is exactly the propoganda they're spreading through the satellite stations. And many Arabs are falling for it. I don't deny that fact.

*what explained the widespread lameness before "satellite dish" ? *

Western foreign policy, possibly? One thing for sure, and this is not just among the Saudis but Muslims in general: They are far away from their Deen, Islaam.

*if people are not able to practice their faith, or have their religious books or items with them, what kind of "respect" is that? *

What kind of faith, books and religious items?

*Yes and the illness is blaming everyone but oneself for all the troubles, challenges and problems. *

Yes, that normally would be the easy way out. However, i understand that Saudi has its faults, but these have come at a cost: keeping relations with the US. As soon as it breaks its ties and the people turn to their Religion (as it should be practiced), you will see changes beginning to take place.

So if you wish to see such a transition in Saudi, don't support US hypocrisy of supporting the "undemocratic" Saudi state. We all know, the only reason US shmoozes Saudi is to influence the affairs of the Middle East ... and of course, for cheap/free Saudi oil imports.