Re: Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France
mr sarkozy should concentrate on reverse immigration of muslims rather then to stigmatise them during their life in france.
i'd love to say white nations are anti islam but the truth is the whole world, inc oic countries, is murderously anti islam and anti muslim
Isn't funny that universal declaration on human rights only applies to muslims in non mulsim countries? When we start respecting others' beliefs, cultures and way of life then and ony then we will have a right to complain about our rights being violated by others. Otherwise the hypocrites are us.
Actually no. Its not us, its you. You have openly stated you have no issues with the violations of basic and fundemental human rights. You stated it in your opening post. On the other hand you will find many Pakistanis hell posters on this forum that have issues with minorities rights being abused. You only ***** when it applies to non-muslims in muslim countries.
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I really have no problem with this. Its their country, and their laws.
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If you support the Universal Declaration then you shouldn't be such a hypocrite. It applies across the board regardless of race, ethnicity and color.
Re: Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France
Its funny to ban burqa. Is should be the choice of woman what to wear or what not to wear. such kind of restrictions should only be on the minimum clothing to set the standard of modesty, not on burkha or hijab.
I find this thread very funny. Those who have very conservative views bordering radicalism are standing behind of freedom. hahaha.
However in saying that, the Islamic nations ban illicit sex, drugs, gambling, and impiety, and coerce everyone to act according to their version of moral and religious behavior. The secularist would ban head scarfs in schools, Burqas, mosques, and, anything that shows signs of religion. But the effect of both are exactly the same, to reduce everyone to a subhuman level and to deprive everyone of the most precious part of his or her humanity—the freedom to choose.
blah blah blah..
How the google came in & american music & going go beach come from - stick to topic ..
Sawal kuch aur poucha tha,.. idher jevaan katha hi likh maari.. 
Lets make it simple, Burkha is a sign of oppression - you like it or not - it has nothing to do with Quran/Haadith - it came from some camel riders tribal’s from 4th century probably…
Anyway, i have yet to see A FRENCH MUSLIM on the streets !
Now back to Iran, the revolution came on the of certain bloody ideology NOT ON THE NAME OF ISLAM.
Look at the Iranian society today, they are more dilapidation then Pakistan, state oppression, shoot of the spot orders for civilians… use of state force.. at full scale.. full crackdown on media, warning from judicary/military forces to protesters .. this is the democracy ? .. yeh my ass !
Maybe Mullah’s able to win again,.. but one day.. maybe after 5 years or 10 - the Iranian regime will be shattered, not from outside but from very within by young class.
I dont need to google anything. Google is not an authority in my life - -Quran is. If you live by google then more power to you. I also could care less about french people and the muslims that welcome such a rule against their own religion.
BTW this person in Iran was asked why the talk of revolution and his answer was that we cant listen to american music and we cant go to the beach and men and women have to be related or married to be able to be out together.
Mighty forceful arguments from a Muslim eh? So in essence what they are fighting for is freedoms that go against the Islamic principles.
If they want to listen to American music so much they can move to a non-Muslim country.
Remeber, whats rigth according to Islam should be the right for the muslims. So being a muslim you cannot say that this or that portion of Islam is wrong. You take it all, completely. You cannot pick and choose.
I cannot believe what I just read. Please be troll.
I think you didn't read the article correctly. The French Council for the Muslim Religion condemned the ban as a measure that could potentially, "deepen social rifts and threaten civil liberties."
lets back to context, they said DON'T HOLD PUBLIC DEBATE ON IT BECAUSE IT WOULD STIGMATIZE FRANCE'S MUSLIM COMMUNITY.
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On a historical point, the Iranian ban on the chador was in place briefly during the 1940's during the reign of the Shah's father. The Shah was actually the one who revoked the ban, preferring instead to encourage liberalization of purdah practices through the examples set by his family and associates.
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whatever..
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Getting back to the main point...I don't wear a burqa, or cover my head for that matter. But if I wish to do so, then it's my decision to make...not Mr. Sarkozy's or any other politician's. How, pray tell, is Iran or Saudi Arabia's forced purdah any differed from France's forced unveiling? Both represent the government overstepping its role and interfering with basic personal freedoms. If I want to wear a burqa, it should be my decision. If I want to wear a miniskirt, it should be my decision as well...and I would appreciate it if people like you didn't try to undermine my right to dress myself as I see fit.
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Saudia/Iran/Afghanistan & every other so-called Muslim country except Turkey/Malaysia force dress code on foreigners.. so please stop bickering.. its their country their law, you don't like it. Happily move to so-called Muslim Countries, even though in most of the Islamic nations Burkha is also not welcome anymore, people don't like it.
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*I'd also like to point out that in many conservative, predominantly lower class families, purdah is a woman's only ticket to an education. * There are plenty of conservative women who pursue an active role in the world outside their homes because they can do so in purdah, simultaneously respecting their personal beliefs (even if it isnt specifically mentioned in the Qoran) and actively participating in the society around them.
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They BAN burkha in France not in FATA Tribal area !
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Don't patronizingly inform us that we're being oppressed, and then in the same breath attempt to further strip us of our right to independently decide how we dress ourselves.
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Again, convey the same message to Muslim countries to stop enforcing their dress laws on non-Muslims & foreigners !
Actually no. Its not us, its you. You have openly stated you have no issues with the violations of basic and fundemental human rights. You stated it in your opening post. On the other hand you will find many Pakistanis hell posters on this forum that have issues with minorities rights being abused. You only ***** when it applies to non-muslims in muslim countries.
If you support the Universal Declaration then you shouldn't be such a hypocrite. It applies across the board regardless of race, ethnicity and color.
1st I'm waiting for the day when you'll post something where there are no expletives filtered out by the system....but I wouldn't hold my breath.
2ndly, don't degrade expat Pakistanis who contribute enormously to Pakistan...ie the billions of dollars they send home every year.
Anyways, back to the burka topic. Since, you have so much love for burka and keep invoking Universal declaration of Human Rights to justifying it...when it has nothing to do with Islam. In that case perhaps you will also support women who do not want to wear burka, but are forced into beekeepers suits in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan and some parts of Pakistan. Lets hear you condemning the actions of those who force women into burka...when women themselves don't want to be in burka.
As for the France and Europe in general, there is reason why there is backlash against Muslims in those countries. When you bring backward tribal cultures like burka, female genital mutilation and honors killings with you...it understandable why they're concerned about it. That is why there is huge backlash against Muslims b/c they have hard time integrating into western societies.
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Question to all the lovers of whatever: what do you think about Apostasy punishment in Islam?
yeh now we are remembering Universal declaration ..
Im sick of freedom haters saying "its their country". F*ck off. France does not belong to the bureaucrats and never will. The philosophy of freedom does not and never will have any borders, it is UNIVERSAL. So stop saying "Saudi Arabia does it" because it will never make it right.
Every individual has the right to own his person and property, it then follows that he has the right to wear what ever he or she wants. Aside from invasions of our own bodies, one must not forget that such a law would undoubtedly threaten every female the right to self ownership in France.
Re: Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France
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It says nothing about burka. BTW, as you and I both know that authenticity of Quran cannot be questioned therefore I'd appreciate if you point me to a reference in Quran where it says burka is mandatory.
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If you use your common sense and take the veil of western ideology off your mind, you will then understand what Quran says and the sayings of Quran are not rocket science but clear cut orders from Allah and it is us who are twisting things and making false excuses.
Their isn't any dress code mentioned in Quran but the reality and aim behind the saying in Quran what you need to ponder upon. But the problem is this damn corrupted media, which is twisting things against Islam, specially in regards to Women and we are lazy and dumb enough that we even don't bother to pick Quran and read what Allah swt is saying.
Now please if you read the text below carefully and think about it for a while you will find your answer inshallah. It took me about 3 hrs in finding the exact verses and references for a lazy bugger like you.
In Qur'an Allah swt clearly says:
Surah Al-Ahzaab, Verse #59
‘O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks ("Jalabib") veils all over their bodies (screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way Tafseer Al-Qurtabi) that is most convenient that they should be known (as such) and not molested: and Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful."
Surah An-Nur, Verses #30 and #31
‘And Say to the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, head cover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)
In Hadiths;
Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith # 282
Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba (Radhiallaahu Ánha) "Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces.
Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Hadith # 368
Narrated 'Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) used to offer the Fajr prayer and some believing women covered with their veiling sheets used to attend the Fajr prayer with him and then they would return to their homes unrecognized.
Abu Dawood Book 14, Hadith # 2482
Narrated Thabit ibn Qays (Radhiallaahu Ánhu): A woman called Umm Khallad came to the Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) while she was veiled. She was searching for her son who had been killed (in the battle) Some of the Companions of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said to her: You have come here asking for your son while veiling your face? She said: If I am afflicted with the loss of my son, I shall not suffer the loss of my modesty. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said: You will get the reward of two martyrs for your son. She asked: Why is that so, oh Prophet of Allah? He replied: Because the people of the Book have killed him.
and there are too many more Haidths about covering the whole of face except eyes. In different cultures their are different names for covering their faces. some call it Hijab, some call it Nigaba and some Burqa but the aim should be to cover yourself and name it whatever you want.
[quote="janab-e-ali, post:24, topic:141086"]
I'd also like to point out that in many conservative, predominantly lower class families, purdah is a woman's only ticket to an education. There are plenty of conservative women who pursue an active role in the world outside their homes because they can do so in purdah, simultaneously respecting their personal beliefs (even if it isnt specifically mentioned in the Qoran) and actively participating in the society around them.
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v.g point. it's a shame it has to e that way but this should not be taken away. They inturn should not object taking it off for identification purposes when asked
difference between a theocratic state and secular democracy. by the way would you care to ok saudi and iranian laws by the same token that allows you to cheer on this one?
Anyways, back to the burka topic. Since, you have so much love for burka and keep invoking Universal declaration of Human Rights to justifying it...when it has nothing to do with Islam. In that case perhaps you will also support women who do not want to wear burka, but are forced into beekeepers suits in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan and some parts of Pakistan. Lets hear you condemning the actions of those who force women into burka...when women themselves don't want to be in burka.
As for the France and Europe in general, there is reason why there is backlash against Muslims in those countries. When you bring backward tribal cultures like burka, female genital mutilation and honors killings with you...it understandable why they're concerned about it. That is why there is huge backlash against Muslims b/c they have hard time integrating into western societies.
yawn More bull****. The point is simple. Regardless of what you think it is part of Islamic teachings is it not. You can use all the word games to make yourself at ease but at the end of the day we know whats right.
Its a simple issue. The universal declaration states and protects the right to practice religion freely. You are frankly being a hypocrit. You openly agree with restricting the human rights of muslims in other lands and then ***** about religious freedoms of minorities in Islamic lands.
The rest of your post is irrelevant as we are discussing french laws which restrict freedom of religion. You want to start thread on the Burqa in Muslim countries, by all means do so. But as a moderator you know know better than attempts to derail a thread.
[quote="janab-e-ali, post:24, topic:141086"]
I'd also like to point out that in many conservative, predominantly lower class families, purdah is a woman's only ticket to an education. There are plenty of conservative women who pursue an active role in the world outside their homes because they can do so in purdah, simultaneously respecting their personal beliefs (even if it isnt specifically mentioned in the Qoran) and actively participating in the society around them. QUOTE]
v.g point. it's a shame it has to e that way but this should not be taken away. They inturn should not object taking it off for identification purposes when asked
I totally understand that purdah is a ticket to education and freedom for women from the conservative families. But we also would have to take into account the impact of dressing like this. From a personal experience I had a colleague who used to wear the purdah(total, even the eyes) to office. Communicating with her was a nighmare. People would like to see the face when they talk. It was as talking to an inanimate object. To make matters worse she would just nod her head instead of saying "Yes" or "No". This would become very difficult to interpret and created lot of confusion in the team.
Hence I think it is important that we understand that we live in a society and adjust accrordingly. It is not as if every other person who looks at you has lustful feelings.
Its a simple issue. The universal declaration states and protects the right to practice religion freely. You are frankly being a hypocrit. You openly agree with restricting the human rights of muslims in other lands and then ***** about religious freedoms of minorities in Islamic lands.
Muslims in non-Muslims countries have more freedoms than in their own countries. Maybe that is the reason why bruka lovers want to stay in France? If not, as I suggested earlier, move to a place that is more burka friendly. That is why, I totally support France. They have right to make laws that are compatible with their values, and they have every right to keep tribals and their backward cultures out.
As for Universal Ceclaration of Human Rights- let me know when Christians can build their churches in Saudia or Jews/Hindus can build temples KSA thn we'll talk about Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Re: Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France
Why blame France, didnt turkey do this 90 years ago ?
lets back to context, they said DON'T HOLD PUBLIC DEBATE ON IT BECAUSE IT WOULD STIGMATIZE FRANCE'S MUSLIM COMMUNITY.
whatever..
Saudia/Iran/Afghanistan & every other so-called Muslim country except Turkey/Malaysia force dress code on foreigners.. so please stop bickering.. its their country their law, you don't like it. Happily move to so-called Muslim Countries, even though in most of the Islamic nations Burkha is also not welcome anymore, people don't like it.
They BAN burkha in France not in FATA Tribal area !
Again, convey the same message to Muslim countries to stop enforcing their dress laws on non-Muslims & foreigners !
It's pretty clear you didn't even read my post before responding, or just couldn't understand it.
I totally understand that purdah is a ticket to education and freedom for women from the conservative families. But we also would have to take into account the impact of dressing like this. From a personal experience I had a colleague who used to wear the purdah(total, even the eyes) to office. Communicating with her was a nighmare. People would like to see the face when they talk. It was as talking to an inanimate object. To make matters worse she would just nod her head instead of saying "Yes" or "No". This would become very difficult to interpret and created lot of confusion in the team. Hence I think it is important that we understand that we live in a society and adjust accrordingly. It is not as if every other person who looks at you has lustful feelings.
You find her attire mildly distracting...so instead of going to the next logical step and asking her to articulate herself more clearly, you think the solution is a national law restricting her right to dress herself as she sees fit. Truly brilliant.
This is the same kind of argument people on the other end of the spectrum use to try and ban women from wearing skirts...claiming it will be to distracting/arousing for the men around them if their calves are exposed. In either case, its absurd.
Why blame France, didnt turkey do this 90 years ago ?
because France is not Turkey and 90 years ago is not now.
as someone said earlier, there is very little difference between France banning burqa and taleban mandating burqa.