Salvation - Christian theology

It is claimed:

Monopoly on salvation is one of the basic questions in Christian theology & other religions (other than Islam) which has been hard for me to understand.

I would like Christian guppies here to elaborate the above claim a little further, while backing it up from their scripture. Explain along the lines of how will those people be saved who lived and died before Christ? And what about those who never heard of Christ even though they lived after him? What is to become of them?

The direction of the other thread from which the quote is taken was not to discuss Christian theology, and so I opened this thread. I hope the moderators will not mind.

In view of the new thread, i'll add my previous question here as well.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by The Old Man: *
**Christians believe both groups of people have the possibility of being "saved" by Christ's death on the cross, true. A sacrifice can occur at the beginning, end or middel with no "logical" problems :) *

[/QUOTE]

At what point in time then were righteous people who had passed away before Christ's sacrifice actually "saved"? Was their salvation suspended until the crucifixion had taken place?

Iqbal

Ahmadjee Bhaijan, this is Theology and not statistics. What is so hard to understand that the he died for the Sins of this world – past, present, and future?

Bhaijan Theology makes as much sense as chicken fajitas, how can one make any sense of the praying rituals for example? Or God himself? It’s all made up to keep people busy so they wont kill each other for silly reasons such as making sense.

The best approach is to let everyone believe whatever the hell they do. Questioning religious beliefs get no one anywhere, only deeper in a dark ditch. I don’t think Prophets went around questioning everyone about their beliefs. People only followed them because they appeared to make sense. Noahite Laws did not stop after his ark anchored, but they started with that. Same can be deduced from the theory of salvation.

I find the concept of Salvation in Christianity very appealing.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *

I find the concept of Salvation in Christianity very appealing.
[/QUOTE]

I personally like the concept of a smal martini with a tall leggy supermodel. Now that's Jannat!

NYA bhaijaan, arguing with the intentions to understand & to broaden one's own horizon, build bridges among people of different faith & theologies and helps to resolves misunderstandings (maybe it doesn't happen in New York). I don't go sit in Bible studies, Hundu Bhashans & Khutbas to be in a dark ditch.

Those who argue with the intentions to show the other down are the trouble makers.

Jesus (as) argued his teachings & interpretation in the face of the bigoted priests of the Jews & then later in front of the Roman court! So did AnHazoor (saw) with the Arabs & their beliefs and Mirza Sahib (as) wrote books after books for the same purpose.

My pardon for not responding to the questions timeously. Hope the following helps to explain the way Christians view "salvation":

A short summary of Christianity's standard doctrine on salvation:

  1. God Almighty created man. As the Creator, He does not owe his creation anything but can anytime act to His creation as He pleases - even to destroy man and the universe.

  2. God created man in His image and instilled a part of Him in mankind by breathing into him life. This part of God inside wo/man make mankind to want to worship God and distinguishes man from the animals. There is no animal that has this inborn search for a higher being in them.

  3. Adam as first man sinned. This sinful nature was passed on to each of us - being his offspring. * Therefor, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned - Rom.5v12* Each person is therefor born with sin already part of his makeup. There has and never will live a person that is not a sinner. * If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us - 1Joh.1v8 *

  4. Being of a sinful nature, no person can "save"/redeem themselves by doing or keeping any good works or laws or religious practices. There is nothing that a person can do to redeem himself before God Almighty since all mankind is impure.

  5. Because of God's love for His creation, he decided to fulfill the redemption Himself through Jesus Christ His Son. * "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. - John.3v16-17 * Jesus Christ (part of the Tri-une God) became "human" (gave away his Godly attributes) to be born as a normal wo/man is born and to live a normal life and prove that it is possible to be sinless. His death on the cross was to atone for our sins and was done for all mankind/sinners. * Your attitude should be the same as that of Jesus Christ: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross. Therefor God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father - Phil.2v5-11 * See also Isah.53

  6. A person is "saved" (obtain Salvation) by faith alone - faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour and God Almighty, not good works nor keeping of religious beliefs/actions. * But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we have done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. - Tit.3v4-7 *

  7. People before Jesus Christ's death also form part of his saving grace through their faith in God: * Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then , that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advanced to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. - Gal.3v6-9 * All prophets knew and taught that Jesus Christ the Messiah would come * Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. - 1Pet.1v10-11 *

  8. People that lived or will live that does not know God and Jesus Christ will be judged on their conscience since God has a part of Him in each and every person as per point 2 above. * For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without any excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him - Rom.1v20-21a *

  9. In short: Faith come first, then works. We receive salvation from God by faith alone, without works. Once having received salvation in this way, we then work it out actively in our lives by our works - by the things we do. If we do not actively work out our salvation this way, after believing, this shows that the faith we have professed is merely dead faith, and that we have no real experience of salvation. We do not receive salvation by works. But our works are the test of whether our faith is real and the means by which our faith is developed.

  10. All who have faith and do the works that is the fruit of the faith, can know now already that they have salvation depending on their standing before God * I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life - 1Joh.5v13 * A Christian therefor can each moment of the day be sure whether he is in good or bad standing before God. During judgement day, all people whose name is not written in book of life will be send to hell, the rest will receive judgement on their lives and rewards according to what they have done.

The Old Man,

Thank you for your time & effort to write such a long essay. I really do appriciate it.

As I try to read it over again & digest, I had only one question for the
moment. All the quotations that you gave above are from the Apostles, like Peter, John or Paul. Is there any where in Bible where Jesus (may peace & blessing be upon him) himself said something in this regard?

Apostles interpreted the original teachings of Jesus & disagreed with each other. Being "sinful" in nature, they are prone to mistakes. So, word of Jesus himself would be strong argument in this regard.

Dear ahmadjee

(should one spell it with a capital "a"?)

My pardon for the lengthy explanations. My efforts is not to sow discord or confuse people with the explanations but rather to bring clarity to some as to the Christian teaching on salvation. It is not my intention for people to change their faith. God Almighty will call those He want, as and when He wants them.

Since the doings and sayings of Jesus Christ in the Gospels also are written by the same Apostles, I assume that some people will take your argument against the Apostles' writings further to include the whole New Testament Books of the Bible. For Christians in discussing their doctrines, the whole Bible has the same weight as is written: * All Scripture is God- breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. - 2Tim.3v16-17 *

I will though accommodate you and give some examples from not just the Gospels, but also the Old Testament part of the Bible. You have to realize though that the Old Testament is more of a history and poetic biblia of books and has very little clear theological reasoning as done in the writings of the Apostles who specifically wrote the writings to explain certain issues. Further I just need to state that I will accept the teachings of people that conversed personally with Jesus Christ rather than anyone else that want to teach differently who has never seen or talked with Jesus Christ themselves. As to your statement that the Apostles were in disagreement among themselves as to the teachings of Jesus, there is no such disagreements except that some highlighted certain issues/aspects more than others due to the audience they wrote to and their ability to express themselves.

My points 1 and 2 is straight out of the Old Testament, you will agree, so I will not re-explain them.

Point 3 as to universal sin: King David wrote in Psalm 51v5 * Surely I have been a sinner from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. * and in verse 14 * Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God , the prophet Jeremiah wrote in chapter 17v9 * The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? *. David also wrote * The Lord looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no-one who does good, not even one. - Ps.14v2-3 *, and in Ps143v2 * Do not bring your servant into judgement, for no-one living is righteous before you. *. King Solomon prayed/wrote * "When they sin against you *(God Almighty) - for there is no-one who does not sin - and you become angry.... - 1King.8v46 *, and in Ecclesiastes 7v20 * There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. *. Jesus inferred that all his listeners were sinners by stating * If you then, though you are evil... - Luk.11v13 *. The prophet Isaiah in his prophesy about the coming Messiah wrote * We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. - Isah.53.6 *. Job wrote * If God places no trust in his holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes, how much less man, who is vile and corrupt, who drinks up evil like water! - Job15v15-16 *.

Point 4 as to the inability of people to do anything to save themselves: The Psalmist wrote three times in Psalm 80 * Restore us, O God Almighty; make your face shine upon us, that we may be saved * and the prophet Jeremiah wrote in Lamentations 5 * Restore us to yourself, O Lord, that we may return. *. Both accepted that God needs to make the first move in order for man to be saved. King David wrote in Psalm 51v10 * Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. *. David use the word "ba'rah" for the word "create" which means "create from nothing" as God did with the universe - very much as per the "rebirth" of the New Testament writers and Jesus Christ's teachings. Only God Almighty can change the sinful heart of man. Job infer in chapter 9v2 that no-one can be righteous by himself * But how can a mortal be righteous before God? *. Jesus infer that man can do nothing to save himself by saying * What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? - Matt.16v26 *

Point 5: God himself taking a hand in the saving of mankind: The prophet Isaiah wrote * Therefor the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel - Isah7v14 * This "Immanuel" translate to "God with us". Compare what the prophet Zechariah quote God Almighty saying "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look **on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn **for him* as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieve for a firstborn son" - Zech.12v10 , with what the prophet Isaiah wrote * For to us **a child* is born....and he will be called Wonderful Councillor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. - Isah9v6 *. Judaism and Christianity both see these quotes as Messianic prophecies. Notice how God interchange between "me" and "him" in the Zechariah quote, and how can a child be a "Father" and Mighty God"?

Point 6: In Isaiah 53 we have the following prophecy completely fulfilled by Jesus Christ: * He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering......Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.....the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgement, he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living.....He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer.... After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.....For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. *. Many, many more examples can be quoted where the coming of the Messiah is foretold and fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

Point 6: Jesus Christ said the following: For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and **I* will raise him up at the last day*

Point 7: Jesus Christ said the following: Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad - John8v56; For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it - Mattt.13v17. Abraham was justified because he believed in God: Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness. The promise of the Messiah that would come to save the world was well known all through the Old Testament times, e.g. Abraham: ...and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you - Gen.12v3, Jacob: ....until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his - Gen49v10, the Passover of the Israelites, Job: I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth, David: ...because you will not be abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

BTW: Even the Old Testament was written by sinful people......