Salman Rushdie of the Netherelands: A dutch muslim woman

I am not sure it goes in the religion forum or is it more political…the ods can move to the appropriate place. An interesting read…


Behind the Veil: A Muslim Woman Speaks Out
By MARLISE SIMONS

MSTERDAM — Ayaan Hirsi Ali had done well in the 10 years since she arrived in the Netherlands as a young refugee from Somalia and, until a few months ago, she lived a quiet life in her adopted land. Never did she intend to create a national commotion.

She studied Dutch, took on cleaning jobs, went to university and worked as a political scientist. She made a name for herself pressing for the emancipation of Muslim women and documenting how thousands, living even here, were subjected to beatings, incest and emotional and sexual abuse.

To the surprise of many, she became a leading voice condemning the government’s support for multiculturalism, programs costing millions of dollars a year that she considers misplaced because they help keep Muslim women isolated from Dutch society.

Then Ms. Hirsi Ali, 32, began receiving hate mail, anonymous messages calling her a traitor to Islam and a slut. On several Web sites, other Muslims said she deserved to be knifed and shot. Explicit death threats by telephone soon followed. The police told her to change homes and the mayor of Amsterdam sent bodyguards. She tried living in hiding. Finally, last month, she became a refugee again, fleeing the Netherlands.

“I had to speak up,” she said, in a telephone interview from her hiding place, “because most spokesmen for Muslims are men and they deny or belittle the enormous problems of Muslim women locked up in their Dutch homes.”

Her ordeal has caused an outcry in the Netherlands, a country already uneasy with its recent waves of immigrants and asylum seekers, now representing almost 10 percent of the population. Many Dutch see the threats as an intolerable assault on the country’s democratic principles. The threats have also intensified a fierce debate — one that can be heard these days across Europe — about what moral values and rules of behavior immigrants should be expected to share.

Though absent, Ms. Hirsi Ali seems very present here. Her portrait has appeared on magazine covers and television and there have been indignant newspaper editorials and questions in Parliament. Some have called her the Dutch Salman Rushdie. In paid advertisements, more than 100 Dutch writers have offered her support.

“I’ve made people so angry because I’m talking from the inside, from direct knowledge,” she said. “It’s seen as treason. I’m considered an apostate and that’s worse than an atheist.”

The theme of injustice toward women in Islamic countries has become common in the West, but it has gained fresh currency through Ms. Hirsi Ali’s European perspective, her study of Dutch immigrants and her own life. Born in Mogadishu, she grew up a typical Muslim girl in Somalia. When she was 5, she underwent the “cruel ritual,” as she called it, of genital cutting. When her father, a Somali opposition politician, had to flee the country’s political troubles, the family went to Saudi Arabia, where, she said, she was kept veiled and, much of the time, indoors.

At 22, her father forced her to marry a distant cousin, a man she had never seen. But a friend helped her to escape and she finally obtained political asylum in the Netherlands.

She was shocked when, as a university student, she held a job as an interpreter for Dutch immigration and social workers and discovered hidden “suffering on a terrible scale” among Muslim women even in the Netherlands. She entered safe houses for women and girls, most of them Turkish and Moroccan immigrants, who had run away from domestic violence or forced marriages. Many had secret abortions.

“Sexual abuse in the family causes the most pain because the trust is violated on all levels,” she said. “The father or the uncle say nothing, nor do the mother and the sisters. It happens regularly — the incest, the beatings, the abortions. Girls commit suicide. But no one says anything. And social workers are sworn to professional secrecy.”

More than 100 women a year have surgery to “restore” their virginity, she estimates in her published work. While only 10 percent of the population is non-Dutch, this group accounts for more than 60 percent of abortions, “because the Muslim girls are kept ignorant,” she said. Three out of five Moroccan-Dutch girls — Moroccans are among the largest immigrant groups — are forced to marry young men from villages back home, to keep them under control, she said.

Behind the Veil: A Muslim Woman Speaks Out
(Page 2 of 2)

A year or so ago, Ms. Hirsi Ali's case might not have attracted so much attention. But the mood in the Netherlands, as in much of Europe, changed after Sept. 11, 2001. In the month that followed, there was an unheard of backlash against the nearly one million Muslims living in the Netherlands, with more than 70 attacks against mosques. Sept. 11 also gave politicians licence to vent brewing animosities.

Among them was Pim Fortuyn, a maverick gay politician who was killed in May, apparently by an animal rights activist. He said out loud what had long been considered racist and politically incorrect — for example, that conservative Muslim clerics were undermining certain Dutch values like acceptance of homosexuality and the equality of men and women.

What Mr. Fortuyn did on the right, Ms. Hirsi Ali has done on the left. Many in the Labor Party, where she worked on immigration issues, were shocked when she told reporters that Mr. Fortuyn was right in calling Islam "backward."

"At the very least Islam is facing backward and it has failed to provide a moral framework for our time," she said in one conversation. "If the West wants to help modernize Islam, it should invest in women because they educate the children."

To do this, she argues for drastic changes in Dutch immigration policy. The government, she says, should impose Dutch law on men who beat their wives and daughters, even if the Muslim clergy say it is permissible. It should also end teaching the immigrants in their own language and stop paying for the more than 700 Islamic clubs, most of which, she said, "are run by deeply conservative men and they perpetuate the segregation of women."

Her views, and the death threats, have divided Muslims, who account for most immigrants here. Almost 20 Muslim associations have condemned the threats, but at the same time faulted her for criticizing Islam. Hafid Bouazza, a Dutch-Moroccan author who in the past has received letters saying he will burn in hell for his writing, said the threats were shocking. "No criticism of Islam is accepted from women," he said. "Muslim women are particularly vulnerable."

Others were bitter. Ali Eddaudi, a Moroccan writer and cleric living here, dismissed "all the fuss" over a Muslim woman who "panders to the Dutch."

Ms. Hirsi Ali agrees that the criticism is so intense in part because she is a woman. "I am a Muslim woman saying these things, and it has provoked a lot of hatred," she said.

One thing is certain: the death threats against Ms. Hirsi Ali have given more prominence to her ideas, which have now become the subject of intense debate among Dutch policy makers. The Dutch Liberal Party has invited her to become a candidate in the parliamentary elections next January.

She says she has accepted and hopes to return to the Netherlands, though she fears for her safety. "Either I stop my work, or I learn to live with the feeling that I'm not safe," she said. "I'm not stopping."

and bla bla bla......... yawn

Of course, there are problems concering females in the islamic societies, but this woman's approch is very wrong, very undiplomatic.

:sleep2::sleep2::sleep2:

She may have a point there

it is not the religion of islam which is backwards..

but the cultural islam which is backwards..

things which are practised by these muslims in the name of Islam..

may god have mercy on the women who are on the receiving end of this "torture".

Isn't it a basic tenet in Islam that the woman has the final say whether she wants to get married? ... where in the muslim world is this really practised? and if you cry foul.. you are termed a "kafir" .(apostate)

Similarly.. the trauma of these young women suffer .. in Somalia and some other Arab and african Muslim countries where practice of female circumcision is practiced.. Mutilation I say it is. there is no justification for it..

when you add a host of similar antics practiced in the name of Islam.. it is no wonder that this woman said what she did.

She was right to speak out, perhaps she could have been more diplomatuc, but the abuse of women in muslim societies and by muslims in non muslims societies must stop. They use Islam as a viel for there atrocious actions and theus futher flame the stance that Islam oppresses women.

Its our job to prove that stance wrong, through dialogue and such-she is right to protest the abuse of human rights fenmales in parts of Asia and Africa have to go through in allegedly Islamic societies.

And i suppose that non muslim women in the West live a life a of luxury?

Rape,sexaul harssment in work place,domestic beatings,cheating husbands/lovers,singel mothers bringing up kids on their own without no money,where women are viewed as sex objects etc.......dont assume that women are safe in the Western societies

Mo_best, you’re quite right . Women’s rights play a key role and women should definitely be entitled to sexual satisfaction just as men, Islam aside. I don’t think Islam says anything about women not enjoying sex even within the bounds of marriage. I must add too that this practice of female genital mutilations seems to be prevalent in Sub-Saharan Africa and has more to do with culture and traditions than religion.

Clubber lang, I agree 100% with you that women in the West don’t fare any better what with sexual harassment, rape, incest, etc. Great point! However, the issue at hand is different from the one relating to female genital mutilation. Not saying this one is any less serious than the other, just different.

:flower2:

Moona,

Its a matter of both Islamic justice and sheer human rights that women get a fair deal. There oppression comes from the crazy male-dominated societies in muslim nations, as opposed to from the faith of Islam.

Women are Islamcally entitled to all that blokes are, and they should get it. The treatment of women by muslim societies not only harms the women-causing all sorts of social problems-but also paints Islam in a bad light.

Clubber,

I am not saying Women in the west get it great, but they have by and large a far better deal then women in the majority of the muslim world. They have greater freedom regards work, opinion, political rights and social liberties. All Islam assures them, and its time women get the treatment muslims are so fond of saying Islam offers to them.

regradsing female genital mutilations-the Sub-Sharans are savages-thats not racism, but they are truly the least developed ppl in the world. They are literally crazy, and put Africa, Blacks, and w.e faith they are to shame-and yes its cultutral and not religious. I'm sure Islam allows women to enjoy yes-perhaps even encpourages it.

------^:hehe: :hehe: are you for real?

BTW/How many muslim women have 4 husbands/

The quran is the only book in the world which asks men to marry only one woman.

Surah Nisa: (Chapter 4 verse 3)

"Marry women of your choice in twos threes or fours but if you cannot do justice with them,marry only one"

There's no other book in the world, whether it is the ramayan, the mahabharat, the geeta, the bible which says marry only one. The Quran has allowed man to marry more than one wife but suggests to marry only one.

Now lets analyze why Islam allows man to have 4 wives but doesn't allow women to have 4 husbands. Men and women are born in equal proportion. But, since females are the stronger sex (medically.It means females fight germs much better than males) more females live compared to males. In America there are more than 7.8 million females than males and out of the population of men 1/3rd are sodomites (gays). In UK there are 4 million more females than males. In Germany there are 5 million more females than males. In Russia there are 7 million more females than males. Now if every man in America marries 1 female, still 7.8 million females will be left. These females have 2 options:
1. Marry a man who already has 1 wife.
2. Become public property.

So when Allah has allowed men to marry 4 wives and not allowed women to marry 4 husbands then He has done justice to the females.

But you can marry four. Why not five or six?

Yes Chal-I am for real.

re: Number of husbands for women, there is simple logic for the ruing. If a girl has 4 husbands, how can she tell for certain who is the father of any child?

Remember that The Koran applies for all ages, and in the 6th century there was NO DNA testing available. Even now for 90% of worlds ppl itys not available. You must see the problems multiple partners causes for women/children on talk shows mate. Islam just minimises the risk.

I ask you if islam is so bad, anti-women, why are many 1000's of women converting to islam every year?

You can find countless sites for that FACT in any web search.

The rest of the post-the equality aspect of it-dont see your objections to that-if any. I answered what you asked at the end of your piost mate.

Also what that bro said abt numbers and that stuff.

Do you deny ISLAM-not muslims ,we are fallable, garuntees fairness in all walks of life for both sexes?

If yes-which you inevitably will yaar, plz expian why it is so popular amongst women nowdays?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mo_best: *
Yes Chal-I am for real.

re: Number of husbands for women, there is simple logic for the ruing. If a girl has 4 husbands, how can she tell for certain who is the father of any child?

Remember that The Koran applies for all ages, and in the 6th century there was NO DNA testing available. Even now for 90% of worlds ppl itys not available. You must see the problems multiple partners causes for women/children on talk shows mate. Islam just minimises the risk.
[/QUOTE]

So Islam is pretty much a religion for the 6th century as you said. Common sense minimizes the risk...not religion!!!!

[QUOTE]
I ask you if islam is so bad, anti-women, why are many 1000's of women converting to islam every year?

You can find countless sites for that FACT in any web search.

The rest of the post-the equality aspect of it-dont see your objections to that-if any. I answered what you asked at the end of your piost mate.
[/QUOTE]

I do not have any issues with the message of Islam. I have an issue with the finality of interpretation. I know that in the US...a lot of men are converting to islam too. But they are in jail. :)

QUOTE] Also what that bro said abt numbers and that stuff.

Do you deny ISLAM-not muslims ,we are fallable, garuntees fairness in all walks of life for both sexes?

If yes-which you inevitably will yaar, plz expian why it is so popular amongst women nowdays?
[/QUOTE]

It is a cop out to say that it's the adherent not the religion for every thing that is wrong. Islam has greater culpability in this regard because islam is supposedly a "way of life" as we hear on this BB all the time. And if it is a way of life and if interpretation of those ways lead to misunderstandings with other religions or peoples, then the dependency makes Islam as much culpable as the muslim.

islam is not a faith for the 6th century mate, but it had to apply for that time too, if it read:

"You can do what you like sexually, and get DNA testing for clarity if needed" it wouldnt be much use until like the last 10 years man! It is universally and eternally applicable, and thus wipes out any risk element-totally security even if its a bit conservative an approach.

Its the half baked, politically motivated, piecemeal implementation of Islam which is the problem, there are parts of Islam are not 100% cool with, but thats my personal opinion-it doesnt mean for me Islam is any less perfect, but rather that I choose to be an individual and think for myself outsdie the faith.

Also, MANY ppl convert to Islam away from jail too mate! Most probably!

:D

Whats the conversion to Hinduism/Sikhism (which ever you follow mate) there in the US?

So what you are saying mo-best is that Islam was created such that it can apply to 6th century as well as now. basically it is a one dress made to fit a 6 year old and 21 year old....and what you are saying is that it is not the fault of the dress but the 21 yr old's that he did not stay as big as 6 yr old.

That is an INCREDIBLY simple example for an incredibly complex issue-but as you see fit mate.

Keep the peace. :)

mo_best and axiom :k: :k: :k:

CH if you remember,in the topic"ISLAM VS HINDUISM" you said that Islam was meant for the seventh century. I came back the next day to post a reply but the topic was deleted. So I wanted to start a new topic"Islam and modern science" to reply your answer. But you say the same thing here also so i will reply right here.