who controls saichan?
pak or india???
i think its a disputed area..
Siachan is under great Hindustan.
No its not... There are peaks which are either under Pak's or either in Indians control... More people die in Siachin due to the weather rather than the enemy.
The so called great hindustan opened this front in the 80s... They are facing the consequences... Pakistan's side of Siachin has a much less steeper slope as compared to India... India has to airlift everything...
LOL! Under Hindustan ? Beta, check out the map
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
Live & Let Live
tiger mian,go and see the maps again,most of the siachin is under india,which was taken from pakistan in 1987! now if u have doubts go and ask ur great president musharraf,who tried to take back those areas in order to impress zia-ul-haq but … ha ha ha go and ask him what happened there,u will have opportunity to see amnesia patient called mushrraf coz he wouldnt like to discuss that battle!
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/buylink/oldlink/0,11397,1101890731-152315 ,00.html
The Himalayas War at the Top Of the World
By EDWARD W. DESMOND KASHMIR
“Fighting at breathtaking altitudes, Indians and Pakistanis are locked in an icy stalemate”
July 31, 1989
The Himalayas War at the Top Of the World
Fighting at breathtaking altitudes, Indians and Pakistanis are locked in an icy stalemate
BY EDWARD W. DESMOND KASHMIR
The blast is startling, and so is the reverberation that echoes like a landslide. But the sound of artillery fire – the sound of war – fades quickly in the gigantic stillness of mountain and glacier. Soldiers clad in dirty white snowsuits, their faces burned black by the sun, scramble to put another shell in the 105-mm howitzer and fire again. They are Pakistanis, serving at an outpost 17,200 ft. up on the Baltoro Glacier, just short of a sweeping ridgeline called the Conway Saddle. Their fire is aimed over the ridge at similar positions manned by Indian troops seven miles away on the Siachen Glacier, the longest in the Karakoram mountains. When the weather is clear, the big guns sometimes boom round the clock.
On this day, the other side is not shooting back, so only a handful of Pakistanis man machine guns, to ensure that no Indian reconnaissance helicopter passes unchallenged. Blue sky forms a stunning canvas for the cathedrals of snow-laden mountains topping 20,000 ft., including K2, the world’s second highest peak. The Pakistani brigadier who commands the northern sector of the area looks around and says, “This place is beautiful. It was not meant for fighting.”
But fighting there is – and has been for more than five years. The Karakoram fastness of northern Kashmir is an area no men ever inhabited, and only a few had traversed, before Pakistani and Indian troops moved in to wage a bitter conflict, largely out of sight of their own people and the rest of the world. Pakistan and India each deploy several thousand troops in the region. Neither side releases casualty figures, yet hundreds of men have died from combat, weather, altitude and accidents, and thousands have been injured. Says the general commanding the Indian sector: “This is an actual war in every sense of the word. There is no quarter asked and no quarter given.”
The paradox is that India and Pakistan are supposedly at peace and that Prime Ministers Rajiv Gandhi and Benazir Bhutto are trying to move from a chilly standoff into a friendlier era. Both say they want to erase what Bhutto calls the “irritant” of the Siachen Glacier problem, and both instructed their negotiators to do so in the most recent round of talks that began last month in Pakistan. When Gandhi and Bhutto met face to face in Islamabad last week, however, they failed to come close to devising a practical solution. Progress has been as thin as the atmosphere in the Karakorams, as the negotiators struggle to settle the central issue: how to divide the disputed mountain area between Pakistan and India.
At stake is national prestige as well as control of Kashmir’s northern reaches. Since gaining their independence from Britain in 1947, both countries have wanted the 85,805 sq. mi. of the state of Jammu and Kashmir as their own. In 1949 Pakistan and India signed the so-called Karachi Agreement, which drew a cease-fire line that ended at map coordinate NJ 9842, at the southern foot of the Saltoro Range. The negotiators did not extend the line because there had been no fighting in Kashmir’s northernmost reaches, but merely mentioned that the line should continue “thence north to the glaciers.” Despite minor adjustments after the 1965 and 1971 India-Pakistan wars, the official boundary still ends at NJ 9842, leaving the Siachen ownership question unresolved.
Almost from the beginning, New Delhi has argued that India is entitled to control all of Kashmir. Islamabad’s claim is more complex: besides supporting a 1949 U.N. call for a plebiscite on Kashmir’s future, Pakistan has marshaled what it considers proof that it has all along controlled the area from NJ 9842 to the Karakoram Pass on the Chinese border. Islamabad cites circumstantial evidence, like the fact that mountaineering expeditions for years sought Pakistan’s permission to enter the region, and its agreement to cede some of the territory to China in 1963.
India was the first to deploy troops on the Siachen Glacier. In April 1984 the Indian army launched Operation Meghdoot (Cloud Messenger), placing forces at two key passes of the Saltoro Range, which runs along the Siachen Glacier’s western edge toward the Chinese border. India says it was pre-empting a planned Pakistani move – a contention Islamabad denies. The Indian advance captured nearly 1,000 sq. mi. of territory claimed by Pakistan; ever since then New Delhi has wanted to establish a formal boundary along that natural divide. The conflict escalated slowly as each side deployed more men, established more outposts, introduced more artillery and rockets. In September 1987 the action peaked, but neither side has been willing to take the next steps, which might involve introducing air power or expanding the conflict to the south.
The only benefit for both sides has been improvement in their capability for high-altitude warfare. Both forces have built all-weather roads that twist up between towering peaks to base camps on the glaciers. Soldiers spend six weeks acclimatizing to the torturous conditions, learning ice climbing and winter survival. From the camps, men fan out to front-line positions in snow-choked mountain passes. They take turns watching for movement on the other side – and the opportunity to call in artillery.
The rules of engagement are clear-cut on both sides: if there is a target, fire. Thus the battle is largely indirect, as howitzers and mortars lob shells – mostly inaccurately – over the ridges. Infantry assaults are rare, mainly because it is so hard for men to move, let alone charge, at such heights and over crevasse-riddled glaciers. At 18,000 ft. and higher, even a fully acclimatized soldier carrying rifle and combat pack can jog only a few yards without losing his breath. “The terrain does not allow much movement,” says a Pakistani officer at an outpost on the Baltoro Glacier. “There is a natural limit to this conflict.”
The principal causes of casualties are terrain and weather. Never before have men fought for any length of time at such altitudes, breathing air that contains less than half the oxygen at sea level, at temperatures that drop below -43 degrees F, in blinding blizzards that can last days. Both sides admit that 8 out of 10 casualties are caused by the harsh conditions – including soldiers being swept away in cascades of snow or tumbling into crevasses. Says a Pakistani officer at the northern end of the Saltoro sector: “We are brave. They are brave. And we both face the same enemies: the weather and the altitude.”
** On those occasions when the antagonists do fight at close range, the results can be fearsome. In a month-long clash ending last May, soldiers battled intensely on a mountain and ridges near the Chumic Glacier. Both sides dispatched men in a furious race to an icy 21,300-ft.-high peak that commanded the area. “The secret in this terrain,” says an Indian officer, “is to be the first on top.” Seeing that the Indians would in fact get there first, the Pakistanis took a gamble: in howling winds they tied two soldiers to the runners of a helicopter for a seven-minute ride to the peak, not certain whether wind speed and icy temperatures would cause them to freeze to death before they reached their destination. The soldiers survived, landed on the summit and held off about a dozen Indians climbing toward the same spot.
During a month of fighting, the Pakistanis claim six of their men died, while at least 34 Indians were killed; India refuses to release its casualty figures. Though accounts of the struggle differ, it appears that the Indians eventually requested a meeting between the two opposing brigade commanders. After three sessions, both sides pledged to pull back their men, and the Indians agreed to accept two enemy posts that the Pakistanis said had been there all along. It was the first time local commanders had met face to face to sort out a disengagement. **
By sitting down with each other, the two commanders were clearly acting in the spirit their Prime Ministers want to establish. But who will compromise?
Pakistan wants India to pull back from the glacier, after which the two sides could discuss a new boundary line. The key requirement: it must begin at NJ 9842 and end at the Karakoram Pass. But Pakistan would be willing to draw a demarcation between those points that would fall somewhere between its earlier claims and India’s current position on the Saltoro Range.
** India proposes a cease-fire in place, followed by a thinning out of forces in the Saltoro area; the suggestion has been rejected by Pakistan. In the talks last month, New Delhi broached a new formula slightly closer to Pakistan’s: pull back all troops and establish a demilitarized zone, then negotiate on establishing a line from NJ 9842 to the Chinese border. So far, there has been no agreement. **
After investing heavily in lives and money to take and hold the Saltoro, it would be politically difficult for Gandhi to yield even part of the territory to Pakistan, especially with national elections only months away. Bhutto is in an even more sensitive position. Having once taunted late President Mohammed % Zia ul-Haq, her predecessor, for losing the territory in the first place, she now faces poisonous criticism from opposition leaders who accuse her of “submission” to India. In the end, both Gandhi and Bhutto will have to stare down their political antagonists in order to agree on a boundary line across the north’s icy fastness. Otherwise it will continue to be drawn in men’s blood.
[This message has been edited by Abdali (edited May 20, 2002).]
So? That was 1984? The article from time is from 1989 I believe…so it proves nothing. Besides, I think the Israeli Ha’aretz daily is what you guys whould consider ‘neutral’ eh
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
SO this Israeli papaer says Pak soldiers weren’t used to the weather?!!! Did they not realize that Pak soldiers have been fighting here for over fifty years?!!!
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/05/20/siachen.kashmir/index.html
Siachen: The world’s highest cold war
May 20, 2002 Posted: 9:38 AM EDT (1338 GMT)
An Indian army soldier keeps vigil at Siachen; the temperature is below freezing and 7,000 meters in altitude
By Nick Easen
CNN Hong Kong
(CNN) – Mention Siachen to anyone bar Indians and Pakistanis and it will mean little, but for those on the sub-continent it is the ultimate symbol in the dispute over Kashmir.
For the nuclear neighbors, maintaining positions on the frigid Siachen glacier has come to symbolize the political and military resolve in this intransigent conflict.
Blazoned day-by-day in the local media, it is the world’s highest battlefield, with troops stationed higher than most North American, European or African mountains.
At 6,300 meters (20,700 feet) India controls these breathless heights at an estimated cost of up to $1 million a day and is reluctant to back off for fear Pakistan might walk in.
Yet there is no doubt the logistical and physical challenge of supplying troops at sub-zero conditions beggars belief.
Ironically experts say the strategic importance of the glacier, where neither side had troops until 1984, is debatable.
After partition in 1947 no one bothered to extend the line of control between Pakistan and India up to Siachen because no one thought it was worth bothering about.
Indian Defence Minister George Fernandez (second left) gave a morale-boosting visit to Siachen troops in December 2001
However, the 75-km (47-mile) glacier, one of the longest outside of the poles has come to represent a lot more.
Here soldiers are left to stare and shoot at each other across the line of control in a complex of trenches and bunkers.
Toothpaste freezes in its tube, speech can be blurred, frostbite and chilblains are common and plummeting temperatures can leave scores dead.
Yet plenty of volunteers file along the roads of Jammu and Kashmir up to Siachen in the belief that after serving – and surviving – a three-month stretch on the high front line they can expect a boost to their military career.
The fact is the human body continuously deteriorates above 18,000 feet and with winter temperatures of 70 degrees below zero, the inhospitable climate in Siachen has claimed more lives than gunfire.
But nothing seems to shake the resolve of governments in the warm capitals far away.
Any talk of a mutual withdrawal from the crippling environment is always referred to in the context of pulling back from the entire line of control – something both nuclear-armed powers are unlikely to do, say observers.
As long as Pakistan and India remain at deadlock over Kashmir, troops will remain on the blizzard-blasted Siachen glacier.
It is likely that any eventual withdrawal from Siachen, which has claimed so many lives, will be less painful to give up than any other positions.
Largely unknown in the West
A forward camp of the Indian army in 1991 (centre bottom), 45 kilometers along the glacier near the Chinese border
On the edge of the glacial moraine soldiers live in igloos called Bana or Bhim in Hindi and are served an extravagant menu whilst clothed in the expensive high altitude gear.
Mirza Aslam Beg, head of Pakistan’s armed forces a decade ago, told Reuters news agency that supplying troops with a loaf of bread costs India two rupees (four U.S. cents) in the plains and 200 rupees on Siachen because it has to be taken by helicopter.
Not any ordinary helicopter but India’s Indigenous Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) that can generate lift in the extremely thin air at this altitude.
The world’s highest helipad also exists here at Sonam, at a height of 21,000 feet.
At these dizzying heights, breathing can also be a huge effort and many soldiers suffer from high-altitude pulmonary and cerebral edema, headaches and hypertension.
Facts about Siachen
The glacier is the most prominent feature of the Saltoro mountain range, which lies at the extreme northwest of India’s Karakorum region.
Bordering on Pakistan and China it is an extremely pristine environment, yet environmentalists say that the military activities have sent tons of chemicals onto the surface of the glacier, polluting the headwaters of the Indus River.
In the near future Indian and U.S. forces are to hold joint mountain-warfare exercises in Alaska for the first time – the climate and terrain in Alaska matches conditions in Siachen.
Well, if the Indians could take Siachin, why should we care about Kargil? In fact, we should be encouraging more Kargils..
[This message has been edited by Adnan Ahmed (edited May 20, 2002).]
Guys, I once went to India and bought an atlas there... You would be surprised to know what they had done with the map!!! Pakistan's Kashmir (and most of the NWFP) was listed as part of India LOL
They are still obsessed arent they...
What were your impressions of India?
And your experiences?
AFTER they knew you were from Pakistan?
[quote]
Originally posted by Spock:
**Guys, I once went to India and bought an atlas there... You would be surprised to know what they had done with the map!!! Pakistan's Kashmir (and most of the NWFP) was listed as part of India LOL
They are still obsessed arent they...**
[/quote]
NWFP ??? Are you kidding ??
Another lie and making up things just to put someone down. Please tell me which ATLAS you bought there ?? I want all the other Indian guppies to use their resources to find out the truth.
AK
[quote]
Originally posted by Asif_k:
** I want all the other Indian guppies to use their resources to find out the truth.
**
[/quote]
Lol, if that was to happen that would be a MIGHTY achievement for the Indian guppies.
[quote]
Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani:
** Lol, if that was to happen that would be a MIGHTY achievement for the Indian guppies.**
[/quote]
Well That was a joke. And a better joke was by Spock when he saw NWFP in an Indian Atlas.
I know tumhe ye joke ek months ke baad samajh aayega. Teri category wala icon bhi yahan nahin hai.
AK
** Well That was a joke. And a better joke was by Spock when he saw NWFP in an Indian Atlas.**
Really, well it seems Asif, judging by your posting on these boards its hard for you to distinguish between jokes and the truth half of the time.
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[This message has been edited by Dil he Pakistani (edited May 21, 2002).]
Duh! Let me tell you beta!
Correction. Siachin Conflict happened in 1984, not in 1987. I can imagine your knowledge about it
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Musharraf tried to impress Zia, huh? Look, what a moronic statement you have made! You idiot. Musharraf wasn’t even a General during 80’s. He became General in 91.
I agree with you that Musharraf won’t discuss the battle he fought in Kargil. You know Mushy doesn’t take credit for that
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It is India, who use victory as their trade mark
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Take Your Best Shot At Me
Pakistani Tiger wrote:
I agree with you that Musharraf won't discuss the battle he fought in Kargil. You know Mushy doesn't take credit for that It is India, who use victory as their trade mark
Yeah! I too agree with you that mushy will not take the credit because he was the first one to run (for his life) out of Pakistan and hide in China and was watching the fun from there. The credit should be given to Nawaz Sharrif who had the guts to undo what Musharraf did to save the life of millions of Pakistanis. What would you call when you have kicked the enemies butt and see the enemy retreating from the occupied hills? Victory or Vijay.
People and things do not upset us, rather we upset ourselves by believing that they can upset us.
[This message has been edited by francis2k (edited May 21, 2002).]