^^ no hope from Madrassah culture.
They have already done so much harm to the reputation of Islam. No need to beat the dead horse. It won't walk.
^^ no hope from Madrassah culture.
They have already done so much harm to the reputation of Islam. No need to beat the dead horse. It won't walk.
how many madrassah u have visited. with how many mufti's u have interacted wid.
no offense! but ur thoughts give me idea that u r like those who visit mosque once in a blue moon and never visited madrassah. ur post gives clear reflection that u r not aware of the ground realities and merely relying on the blogs of western ppl who have no real understanding of Madrassah set up and what healthy role they are playing in educating mostly poor children(though trend has been drastically changed and children from wealthy and educated families are enrolling themselves in madris to learn ilm deen). as far as jihadi culture is concerned for ur kind info these llegation are on deobundi madressah ........ (though i severly doubt on the veracity of the allegations ne wayz it is a separate debate so leave it ) but as u know majority of the madarris in punjab are being run by brelvi's school of thought and they have never been involved in these activities.
the most important thing what is the solution of this problem. how we can establish good seats of learning for ilm deen.
as ur convictions shows that u fully realise the problem what step u will take to improve this situation, in ur indidual capacity.
as blaming and critcising others cant solve the problem.
........ the most important thing what is the solution of this problem. how we can establish good seats of learning for ilm deen. .....
Ilm Deen is already being taught in universities and colleges.
People should go to the local high school, and then join college/university for Ilm Deen.
If the local high school is full, then collect money/donations for the cause.
But for Allah's sake, quit using a broken system called Madrassah. It worked 100s of years ago, not anymore.
You cannot use donkey carts on the motorway! CAn you?
Same thing is true for modern education system.
For the love of Allah are you equating Hazart Mohammed and Islam to Hitler and Nazism? Are you that [ouch! watch your lingo, please!] deranged?
Maverick is right. Islam will never be a dirty word for Muslims and Pakistanis. If you have such a problem [ouch! watch your lingo, please!]covert already and shut it.
I don't think he is equating Prophet pbuh or islam with Hitler/nazism. He is probably comparing extremists (alqeeda and taliban) and their version of extremist islam....
Re: Sadly! The "religion" will become a "dirty word" in Pakistan
Lusi ever done the SAT? Its a simple analogy. Assumptions are one thing. Reading the text is a completely different matter.
Re: Sadly! The “religion” will become a “dirty word” in Pakistan
Madressah-culture is the root cause of terrorism all across Pakistan, including Waziristans, Southern Punjab, Quetta, etc.
Taking out terrorists in these areas is welcome, but the long term solution to this problem is to purge the madressah teachings. While not every madressah may be involved in terrorist activity, most of them do support terrorism in the name of Islam, and consider the khawarij their heroes.
One way to stop this flow of hatred from madressahs is to stop their funding from oil-rich gulf states like Saudi Arabia.
DAWN.COM | Columnists | Treating symptoms, not the disease
So what has fuelled this deadly trend? Zia’s zeal to send the country back to the medieval era was certainly one factor. And financing many of the madressahs have been rich Muslims from Saudi Arabia, the Gulf and elsewhere who thought their philanthropy was paying to educate poor young Pakistanis.
In many cases, this financial support has had more sinister motives, as proxies were paid to further the causes of rival Muslim countries. Saudi Arabia was especially active in exporting its rigid brand of Islam.
Re: Sadly! The "religion" will become a "dirty word" in Pakistan
The trend on the ground is somewhat contrary...
There are two emerging simultaneous contrasts within the Pakistani Society, on the one hand there has been a considerable increase in the extent of 'enlighten moderation' within certain segments in the society where things previously considered unacceptable are rapidly gaining acceptability like Alcoholism,premarital relationship , blatant rejection of religious values etc. & at the other extreme you will witness an increase in the density of mosques, an increase in their occupancy & more importantly a definite change in the demographic of mosque going people which in the past consisted exclusively of elderly men now you will find more young people reverting towards religious ritualism. There has not been any quantitative study on this topic so cant back my perceptions with statistics but i have experienced this as a definite trend in Karachi for the past 10 years & i am sure if you ever have a conversation with someone attending mosques for 25+ years or someone associated with the movements like tableegi Jamaat etc. they will validate what I am just referring.
None of these two movements are any closer to approaching solutions for societal problems, people who are pursuing religion; their focus is solely on rituals & use religion solely to escape their personal worldly problems.
while the secular, pseudo intellectual class in Pakistan has proven itself to be extremely selfish, having little concern to stand up for the masses & there exists a great disconnect between them . Their ideas are not indigenous & their emotions are too fake & self contained that they pose little appeal to the masses.
What is needed for maintaining the integrity of the society is to use an ideological framework (secular or religious) to solve problems of the society at large, not just the problems of the elite or middle class or the so called 'intellectual', but the need is to solve the problem of masses, the problems of moral degradation, poverty, justice , self respect & dignity.
There is a vacuum which the religious extremists have been exploiting; this has certainly harmed religion more then anything else , this situation is unsustainable & verily this cant continue for long, but error you make when you reach the conclusion that because of this, religion will be destroyed within the Pakistani society is not recognizing the fact the secular 'Elite' does not have the solution either, they do not have the conviction nether the moral character nor the ideological appeal to fill this gap, while the problem with religion is not of conviction or emotional appeal to the masses but that of finding the right direction.
The situation is still vacant & for me it gets down to two things , will those who have extreme conviction but anxious , desperate , directionless & easily amenable to exploitation find the right direction within the religion understanding or will those who are selfish, skeptical , morally degraded, lack conviction & more amenable for escaping then fighting outgrow their skins ?
The trend on the ground is somewhat contrary...
There are two emerging simultaneous contrasts within the Pakistani Society, on the one hand there has been a considerable increase in the extent of 'enlighten moderation' within certain segments in the society where things previously considered unacceptable are rapidly gaining acceptability like Alcoholism,premarital relationship , blatant rejection of religious values etc. & at the other extreme you will witness an increase in the density of mosques, an increase in their occupancy & more importantly a definite change in the demographic of mosque going people which in the past consisted exclusively of elderly men now you will find more young people reverting towards religious ritualism. There has not been any quantitative study on this topic so cant back my perceptions with statistics but i have experienced this as a definite trend in Karachi for the past 10 years & i am sure if you ever have a conversation with someone attending mosques for 25+ years or someone associated with the movements like tableegi Jamaat etc. they will validate what I am just referring. None of these two movements are any closer to approaching solutions for societal problems, people who are pursuing religion; their focus is solely on rituals & use religion solely to escape their personal worldly problems.
while the secular, pseudo intellectual class in Pakistan has proven itself to be extremely selfish, having little concern to stand up for the masses & there exists a great disconnect between them . Their ideas are not indigenous & their emotions are too fake & self contained that they pose little appeal to the masses.
What is needed for maintaining the integrity of the society is to use an ideological framework (secular or religious) to solve problems of the society at large, not just the problems of the elite or middle class or the so called 'intellectual', but the need is to solve the problem of masses, the problems of moral degradation, poverty, justice , self respect & dignity.
There is a vacuum which the religious extremists have been exploiting; this has certainly harmed religion more then anything else , this situation is unsustainable & verily this cant continue for long, but error you make when you reach the conclusion that because of this, religion will be destroyed within the Pakistani society is not recognizing the fact the secular 'Elite' does not have the solution either, they do not have the conviction nether the moral character nor the ideological appeal to fill this gap, while the problem with religion is not of conviction or emotional appeal to the masses but that of finding the right direction. The situation is still vacant & for me it gets down to two things , will those who have extreme conviction but anxious , desperate , directionless & easily amenable to exploitation find the right direction within the religion understanding or will those who are selfish, skeptical , morally degraded, lack conviction & more amenable for escaping then fighting outgrow their skins ?
(I personally do not care for the OP thoughts or title which is just based on a personal illusion and /or delusion. Nothing substantial. Humble and respectably **sorry **to OP.)
*Great post. * Except the last part in blue which did not convey clearly what you meant. :-)
I think the first part you meant of those religiously fanatics and second part is about enlightened 'moderate' -but actually very ignorant or thinking they are educated about religion- people. They are not moderate by any definition by the way.
This far or above that (the red part) I could get the grasp but when your got to blue part, the sentence lost its clarity.
Does this mean that those in second group would have to feel remorseful or shameful for their acts eventually? Really not sure.
I say, overall this is one heck of a post. Bravo.
P.S. The talk/opinion/thoughts of masses **(meaning majority of the majority) is so conveniently ignored by these **religiously extremists **or so called moderates/ignorant **anti-religious extremists or even outsiders.
Re: Sadly! The "religion" will become a "dirty word" in Pakistan
So in essence there are four groups that I can come up with at this time:
1- Extremists against Islam- those who portray themselves as muslims but act exactly opposite to the teachings of Islam.
2- So called Moderate (extremists on other end) Against Islam- those who have no idea of islam but think they know better than anyone about islam and bring their opinion about islam from their ............lower back part of body! :-)
3- Masses following Islam.
Without knowing too much of Islam they still try to follow whatever they can and feel either satisfied or sometimes not really satisfied and try harder to be more religious.
4- Those who have knowledge of Islam and preach islam the way it should be and live the life peacefully and gracefully and are hurt when they hear about any so called( repeat, so called) 'muslim'? acting against the teachings of Islam. **( Not so uncommon either)
Third and fourth groups are always ignored by those who love to bash muslims and Islam. :-)
**
Religion will never be a problem if people confine it to their homes and focus more on the humanitarian aspect of Islam outside
Khateebs rarely talk about humanity during their weekly Friday sermons! why??
Just because Taliban pray and fast is no good defence for their barbaric and criminal acts. Beheadings, suicide bombings etc. are indefensible crimes...let us be perfectly clear about that first
Religion will never be a problem if people confine it to their homes.............
Funny statement to say the least.
Khateebs rarely talk about humanity during their weekly Friday sermons! why??
It shows you have been to either no Friday sermon or more importantly to very uncommon, uneducated places. It is ultimately your problem, not the problem of vast majority. Next time use a good sane judgment. :-)
~If you ate a bad apple from a tree then why blame the person who is merely an average person on street or even the farmer? There were many good apples available for you to choose.
That average person is happy since that person chose to eat the good apple and hence smarter than you! :-)
Just because Taliban pray and fast is no good defence for their barbaric and criminal acts.
Fasting and praying?
Where in Islam it is mentioned that praying and fasting are the only pre-requisites of being good human and getting the ultimate reward?
Many people say shahada, pray, fast or go to Hajj etc. and still do many many bad deeds.
Same is true with those who strictly follow any religion other than Islam and are horrible human being.
Hummmmmmmmm. Thinking about group 2 mentality here ..........:-)
Beheadings, suicide bombings etc. are indefensible crimes...let us be perfectly clear about that first
True. Whoever does these acts, are criminals and terrible 'human' being. No doubt about it.
It is ultimately your problem, not the problem of vast majority. Next time use a good sane judgment. :-) ~If you ate a bad apple from a tree then why blame the person who is merely an average person on street or even the farmer? There were many good apples available for you to choose.That average person is happy since that person chose to eat the good apple and hence smarter than you! :-) Fasting and praying? Where in Islam it is mentioned that praying and fasting are the only pre-requisites of being good human and getting the ultimate reward? Many people say shahada, pray, fast or go to Hajj etc. and still do many many bad deeds. Same is true with those who strictly follow any religion other than Islam and are horrible human being. Hummmmmmmmm. Thinking about group 2 mentality here ..........:-) True. Whoever does these acts, are criminals and terrible 'human' being. No doubt about it.
bhai it is not me or you....that is what the silent majority still believes i.e. if you pray etc. you can do no wrong, that is how most mullahs or people with that kind of mentality judge others as....and that's also one of the main reasons why so many Pakistanis were in denial about these Talibs until terror hit home and they themselves became victims of these extremists - period. Gladly they woke up from their slumber and there is a consensus across the country now that extremism and militancy must be rooted out and the writ of the state restored.
Islam is not the problem. It the narrow-minded and backward extremists amongst us who are the bad fish and who give us all a bad name
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Funny statement to say the least.
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What I meant was if you pray and fast etc. it has no effect on my health but if you are untruthful, dishonest, corrupt and impolite it does affect me and the society
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It shows you have been to either no Friday sermon or more importantly to very uncommon, uneducated places.
[/QUOTE]
The exact mentality I was talking about above...too judgemental!!
bhai it is not me or you....**that is what the silent majority still believes i.e. if you pray etc. you can do no wrong, **that is how most mullahs or people with that kind of mentality judge others as....and that's also one of the main reasons why so many Pakistanis were in denial about these Talibs until terror hit home and they themselves became victims of these extremists - period. Gladly they woke up from their slumber and there is a consensus across the country now that extremism and militancy must be rooted out and the writ of the state restored.
1- If they are 'silent' majority, how do you claim to hear them?
2- No they don't. Never ever met any mullah who said praying and fasting or going to Hajj is the only way to salvation or being a good human. I dare you quote anyone who claim to be a religious scholar and saying that.
Admit it You made it up just to satisfy your self fulfilling prophecy. Let's be realistic here shall we? :-)
Besides, who asked you to believe any evil person posing as a mullah saying these twisted things? Has God not given you a brain and mind to think about it and go read about Islam yourself?
This is the funniest argument by itself that people say:
Oh he said that, hence whatever he said must be true.
*The problem lies where you and like minded choose to put all the faith in FEW bad people deliberately (yes deliberately) so you can find excuse to bash religion.
*
Still it is not the majority to be blamed who follow right minded religious people.
Islam is not the problem. It the narrow-minded and backward extremists amongst us who are the bad fish and who give us all a bad name
Again an amusing comment.
Bhai sahab, if your neighbor does the bad deed,, do you want to be blamed of his action and be ashamed of, would you agree to the whole neighborhood be blamed of his action?
It is your choice, nothing anyone can do about.
What I meant was if you pray and fast etc. it has no effect on my health but if you are untruthful, dishonest, corrupt and impolite it does affect me and the society
No you did not. Read your post again if you forgot what you wrote.
You proposed that the religion should be kept at home/private. This is what I mentioned to be funny. No idea where did you come with this keeping the religion at home.
People who do very bad things should keep those acts private.
Religion is not a bad thing by any stretch to be kept hidden at home.
*In fact anyone who is christian, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, Buddah etc., should be able to openly practice religion anywhere in this world without being afraid from anyone. Following the religion should not be considered a taboo. (I personally have seen jews wearing skull cap, sikhs wearing turban, buddhas kneeling infront of statues and respect them for being dedicated to their beliefs)
*
The exact mentality I was talking about above...too judgemental!!
I don't know what you meant by this. OK. Let me re-phrase that.
None of the Friday sermon emphasize ONLY on praying and fasting. They may say you should fast and and pray but this does not mean these or like acts are the only acts enough to be good person.
For example: There are ten commandments in old testament and judaism.
Only a stupid person would think in order to follow old testament and judaism, you only need ten commandments.
OR
There are only Seven sins which are bad.
So, few particular sermons you might have attended might have given emphasis on few religious acts but if you had taken the sincere time to search, you would instantaneously have found a lot more than these few religious acts.
Why I said few?
Am I being judgmental again in your opinion?
No.
Because I know, only a person who attended only few sermons in lifetime would say that.
And lastly, please stop giving example of few bad people. This is very unbecoming act to say the least. Follow your own mind once in a while! :-)
The situation is still vacant & for me it gets down to two things , will those who have extreme conviction but anxious , desperate , directionless & easily amenable to exploitation find the right direction within the religion understanding or will those who are selfish, skeptical , morally degraded, lack conviction & more amenable for escaping then fighting outgrow their skins ?
last part in blue which did not convey clearly what you meant. :-)
By that what I meant was that all those 'intellectuals' who talk about the great 'ideals' of liberalism,open mindedness, freedom & secularism etc. without debating on whether their ideas are absolutely right or absolutely wrong, whether their vision is vague or there is absolute clarity in them; when it gets down to making real sacrifices for the ideals they are professing ; the past history & the present trend within this segment of the society strongly suggests they do not possess the strength of character to do so.
The religious extremists on the other hand irrespective of the fact that they are evil , inhuman & pursuing practices that can be rightly typecast as a form of religious perversion do have the conviction to go all the way here, I mean the foot soldiers of this movement & not necessarily their bosses.
Therefore they cant be defeated by the secularist or the enlightened moderates.Its only the poor masses, which at the moment are the least influential in shaping the ideological character of our society but the choices they make will determine the future of Pakistan in the next 10 or so years.
What the secularists dont realize why they are at a great disadvantage to religion in inspiring this segment , is that the 'mazdoor' , rickshay/taxiwalas, the massis that work in their homes while they may have little knowledge about religion to follow it in any meaningful capacity, but when the 'rashan' in their homes finishes on the 20th of every month its only 'Allah Ka Assra' that lets them survive the next 10 days, when their child is severely sick & they dont have any money for providing medical care to their child its only 'Allah Ka Wasila' that provides them hope, when they are harassed by people with authority be it their local 'bhais','chaudharies' or thaneydars they can only look towards Allah for being their savior in this situation. Their circumstances , coupled with lack of concern & conviction of the 'enlightened' makes them more amenable to being motivated by religion if it reaches them in the right form.
By that what I meant was that all those 'intellectuals' who talk about the great 'ideals' of liberalism,open mindedness, freedom & secularism etc. without debating on whether their ideas are absolutely right or absolutely wrong, whether their vision is vague or there is absolute clarity in them; when it gets down to making real sacrifices for the ideals they are professing ; the past history & the present trend within this segment of the society strongly suggests they do not possess the strength of character to do so.
The religious extremists on the other hand irrespective of the fact that they are evil , inhuman & pursuing practices that can be rightly typecast as a form of religious perversion do have the conviction to go all the way here, I mean the foot soldiers of this movement & not necessarily their bosses. Therefore they cant be defeated by the secularist or the enlightened moderates.Its only the poor masses, which at the moment are the least influential in shaping the ideological character of our society but the choices they make will determine the future of Pakistan in the next 10 or so years.
What the secularists dont realize why they are at a great disadvantage to religion in inspiring this segment , is that the 'mazdoor' , rickshay/taxiwalas, the massis that work in their homes while they may have little knowledge about religion to follow it in any meaningful capacity, but when the 'rashan' in their homes finishes on the 20th of every month its only 'Allah Ka Assra' that lets them survive the next 10 days, when their child is severely sick & they dont have any money for providing medical care to their child its only 'Allah Ka Wasila' that provides them hope, when they are harassed by people with authority be it their local 'bhais','chaudharies' or thaneydars they can only look towards Allah for being their savior in this situation. Their circumstances , coupled with lack of concern & conviction of the 'enlightened' makes them more amenable to being motivated by religion if it reaches them in the right form.
Great! I see your point. Thanks. :-)
In the end silent masses get to pay the price for two opposite groups fighting each other.
Each group blames poor masses for lack of so called outcry!
A really funny word outcry indeed! :-)
I am B+ve and i believe my blood know no religion it will run on you even if you are a Muslim it will run on me even if i am a Hindu or Muslim, Christian a Sikh or any other religion that is science, religion is a pointer to your respective god or gods,
Hopefully you are not trying to introduce ethnic and racial angle in this thread. We have enough of those threads already.
Bhai meray!
The only way one can rule Punjab or Sindh, or Frontier or Balochistan etc. is by providing stability, justice, and creating an environment for economic development.
Without these essentials, no religion and no nationalism can keep our country together. I mean look at the hashar of Afghanis.
Pashtuns or other minorities will give a hoot to the religious Mullahism if they start getting a strong economic upsurge, stability, and law enforcement.
On the other hand, if there is no stability, then Pak cannot rule even Punjab. Because empty religious slogans do not fill stomachs.
the key here is acknowledgment and acceptance, one recent example is Sri Lanka, Sri Lankas success after LTTE will be measured by its acceptance of ethnic tamil community as one among them, it is not about ruling over them it is about them being part of the whole idea here it is Pakistan, it is about allowing them to be what they want to beand accepting them as they are, Malaysia even though a Islamic country has accepted there multicultural truth and have integrated,
Funny statement to say the least.
~If you ate a bad apple from a tree then why blame the person who is merely an average person on street or even the farmer? There were many good apples available for you to choose.
what if all the apples from all the trees are bad, either bad unknown experimental practices for more yield have led to bad trees are the farmer is exporting the good ones for better money.
for me religion is a private matter, it is not bad that Pakistan was found on the religious identification, weather it lives as strict Islamic state or a moderate or a open society is up to its evolution, but what is important is, is Pakistan living peacefully now, will strict Islamic rules make it peaceful, if her people want to break away to be moderate or a open society then what is wrong if it ensures peace.