"This is not going to be a popular statement but i can't help wondering that killing of other countries' political leaders is something that exclusively belongs to the US. If Canada wants to take out the Kuwaiti emir's sons, would we have that right?
This isn't the wild west and this isn't Texas where mentally challenged individuals can be electrocuted to death on Dubya's whims; there's something called a due process of law which even Saddam Hussein's sons are entitled to. As odious and hated as they are. i agree with Changez. All senior-level Iraqi leaders should be captured, not killed, then put through the Hague or an equivalent court of law. If they are convicted to death, then so be it - but that should be determined by an independent court, NOT by the US administration. Twenty years ago the US was wining and dining with Uday's father; today they want to kill him and his father. If Canada wanted to kill the Kuwaiti emir's sons, would we able to? Or is it just the US that gets to determine who dies and who lives?"
Nadia,
How do you capture people after a three and one half hour firefight? These people are criminals. Check out the Indict web site for a list of Crimes agains Humanity that these people are suspected of. When the Emir of Kuwait is listed on the Indict Web site, or Human Rights Watch is screaming for Arab States to arrest top Kuwaitis when they leave the country, then perhaps Canada should spring into action and make the world a little better.
You are losing the ability do distinguish shades of grey. The son's of Saddam are the darkest of black. No doubt at all that they are rapists, murderers and torturers. The Emir of Kuwait may have historically resisted voting rights for women, but he has not strafed the populice with gunships, gassed his own people, invaded other countries, and ruled in a river of blood. The Emir is not lilly white, he is somewhat grey, but he should not be indicted for crimes against hundreds of thousands of people.
The failure of the diplomatic community to indict Saddam and his thugs is an utter failure in the world of human rights. Had this system worked well, a war truely could be avoided. The time for all that has passed, time to root out evil, not the grey kind, the very black kind....
Rather than the usual jump for joy, lets take a moment to look at this..
Uday and Qusay, who both hate each other but more importantly are both valuable figures in the Baathist resistance, were found together in Kurdish territory?
This raid did not involve aerial attacks or heavy explosives, so bodies should be intact. Physical evidence should be quick in coming.
The DoD, at all points in the chain yet to comment on this, have refrained from unqualified statements and the White House is hesitant as well.
That last bit should be the most optimistic sign.. but there still remains a level of uncertainty. Should this be true, that we found the sons on Kurdish land, perhaps we should check the catacombs of the Vatican for Saddam's hideout?
I'll keep my reservations on this until definitive proof comes out, but at this stage in the game, the US may be inclined to neglect telling us otherwise should that be the case. Let's hope they really are dead.
Nadz, given the nature of the encounter, if the sons were to resist capture and they were killed in a struggle, it would be legal. If this were a simple assasination that would raise questions, but the manner in which the operation was coordinated I doubt we have to worry about that. Even if it were a classical assasination, there would be healthy loopholes making it legit since no government in the world (as far as i know) continues to recognize Saddam's government.
"Uday and Qusay, who both hate each other but more importantly are both valuable figures in the Baathist resistance, were found together in Kurdish territory?"
Spoon,
Mosul is historically a Kurdish area, but during the Anfal campaigns the area was "Arabized". The Anfal campaigns purged much of the Kurdish population in Mosul, and gave Kurd homes and businesses to Arabs who live in those homes to this day. This ethnic cleansing makes Sharons' settlements look like childs play, as huge areas were cleansed of Kurds and Arabs were given control of these huge oil rich areas.
The Arabs who moved into Kurdish homes are among Saddams biggest supporters, and the most militant. They have much to lose if the Kurds are allowed to return to their historic homes. It is not at all incongruous that Saddams spawn would seek refuge in the house of their cousin in Mosul.
OG, it's a possibility.. I guess my problem is that I am speaking from what makes sense to me. Most of what those two have done in their lives hasn't made sense to me so the possibility is real :) But as always, I save the celebration until there is certainty.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
**You are losing the ability do distinguish shades of grey. The son's of Saddam are the darkest of black. No doubt at all that they are rapists, murderers and torturers. The Emir of Kuwait may have historically resisted voting rights for women, but he has not strafed the populice with gunships, gassed his own people, invaded other countries, and ruled in a river of blood. The Emir is not lilly white, he is somewhat grey, but he should not be indicted for crimes against hundreds of thousands of people. The failure of the diplomatic community to indict Saddam and his thugs is an utter failure in the world of human rights. Had this system worked well, a war truely could be avoided. The time for all that has passed, time to root out evil, not the grey kind, the very black kind....
[/QUOTE]
*
OG, Thanks for the detailed reply. You make some excellent points. Maybe i am losing the ability to distinguish shades of grey.
My only argument regarding the above comment about strafing the populace with gunships, gassing his own people, etc., is that this all occurred well over 15 years ago. And we know what our response was back then. It's all applied so selectively.
Anyways, whatever is best for the people of Iraq. If the majority of them are happy with this, then i would be too.
Thanks for the thought-out reply, Spoon. Appreciated.
“Given the nature of the encounter…” - i am honestly afraid, i am still not certain how this encounter was legal in the first place. But i know i am in the minority and arguing a highly unfavourable point of view. You are accurate, even if this were a classical assasination, there would be loopholes. i only wish his government had been eliminated twenty years ago when the world’s other govts. were so busy giving him handshakes.
ah well - we can’t have everything we want, can we.
“As word spread of the deaths of the feared and ruthless brothers, celebratory gunfire crackled across night-time Baghdad.”
"There was delight among people in Baghdad as news from Mosul filtered through to the capital, although many said they could not relax until they had proof the brothers were dead.
Sanchez said he would address the issue of proof on Wednesday, but that “multiple” sources had identified Saddam’s sons.
A least one Baghdad man reflected widespread hatred in Iraq against Uday, who ran much of Iraq’s media and sport.
“I don’t want him dead. I want to torture him first,” said Alaa Hamed, who was a producer at Uday’s television channel.
He said Uday had personally beaten him with electrical cables when he made mistakes."
[QUOTE] Originally posted by myvoice: *
*"There was delight among people in Baghdad as news from Mosul filtered through to the capital, although many said they could not relax until they had proof the brothers were dead."**
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i just hope this does not turn out to be like the reports, subsequent to the war, that claimed everyone in Iraq was cheering and throwing flowers upon the occupying forces for liberating them ;)
Tests ‘show Saddam’s sons died’
Two hundred US troops attacked the villa in Mosul The American military in Iraq says extensive tests confirm that Saddam Hussein’s sons were killed in an attack by US forces on a villa in the northern city of Mosul. The leader of coalition ground forces in Iraq, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, said dental records and positive identifications by former regime officials showed that two bodies recovered from the villa were Qusay and Uday Hussein.
n addition, he said, the injuries on one of the bodies matched those on Uday’s X-ray records, taken after an assassination attempt crippled him.“We have no doubt that we have the bodies of Uday and Qusay,” he told reporters at a briefing in Baghdad. The bodies of the former Iraqi leader’s sons are said to have been flown to Baghdad’s international airport from Mosul. They died barricaded in a fortified second-floor section of the three-storey villa after two attempts by coalition forces to arrest them had been resisted, General Sanchez said.
Saddam Hussein’s sons were numbers two and three on America’s 55-strong “most wanted” list. At the same briefing, General Sanchez also revealed that “number 11” had now been picked up. Hopes that news of the brothers’ deaths would sap the morale of those launching attacks on US forces in Iraq received an early blow on Wednesday morning when two US soldiers were killed and eight injured in two separate incidents.
Two military convoys - one near Mosul, the other just outside the town of Ramadi, west of Baghdad - were hit by what the US military described as “improvised explosive devices”. Meanwhile, Dubai-based al-Arabiya television is broadcasting what is said to be a new audiotape message from Saddam Hussein to the Iraqi people, apparently recorded three days ago. As in previous messages, the speaker urges resistance against the occupying coalition forces in Iraq. BBC defence correspondent Jonathan Marcus says nobody should be in any doubt that attacks against US forces in Iraq will continue, and could even intensify. But he adds that Uday and Qusay’s deaths, if exploited properly, could mark a much-needed turning-point in the American occupation. The BBC’s Jonny Dymond, in Iraq, says the coalition now needs to decide whether or not to allow television cameras to film the dead men to dispel any doubt that may exist about their demise. General Sanchez said this was under review. Reports of the deaths of the two men - among the most influential and most feared in the former regime - were greeted on the streets of Baghdad by people across the city firing shots into the air. However, there is also deep scepticism about the Americans’ announcement of the brothers’ deaths
in the city. The news was welcomed by US President George W Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who have been under pressure over the failure of their forces to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq following the war that toppled Saddam Hussein. Troops from the 101st Airborne Division and US special forces personnel are said to have come under fire as they approached their villa in the northern part of Mosul following a tip-off. The Americans responded with heavy fire, calling in helicopter gunships armed with rockets for support in an operation lasting six hours. Four US soldiers were wounded in the fighting. Two other people were killed along with the former Iraqi president’s sons. They have not been named but reports say one may be Qusay’s teenage son and the other a bodyguard. Correspondents say the Iraqi who apparently tipped off the US military stands to gain at least part of two bounties - each worth $15m - which Washington placed on the heads of Uday and Qusay. Iraqis will now view them as martyrs - and the US as lawless occupiers Norman Harper, US There are reports that the Americans received information from the villa’s owner - said to be a cousin of Saddam Hussein and local tribal leader. A senior US officer said the informant was in “protective custody” in Iraq. When asked why, Colonel Joe Anderson of the 101st Airborne Division said: “People know who owns the house, so that’s a factor.” Qusay, 36, had become Saddam Hussein’s heir apparent and controlled key areas of the country’s security apparatus, with responsibility for concealing any weapons of mass destruction Uday, 39, controlled much of the media and was centrally involved in the illegal international trade which helped keep the regime in power He had a reputation for brutality which rivalled only that of his father.
**The fadyyein have sworn to take revenge what are your view’s on this topic ??? Plz share. Is it good for the iraqi ppl or is this another stance of the american dominance over the middle east. It took the mercenaris two hundered troops and six hours plus air assistance to only take out six men inclosed in the villa and this is supposed to be the world’s best army haha :hehe: **
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
I see very happy people at the deaths of people who were neither tried nor represented. Truly, man can sink quickly to barbarism.
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I find it barbaric there are those that were against overthrowing Saddam and his regime.
Being muslim, our first priority should be to seek justice. In this case, based on what they have done in Iraq, Sadam's two sons have had a very easy way out. They died in a gun battle, lucky for them. Imagine what the parents, brothers and sisters of the people whom they have murdered would have done to them.
All we have to remember is that when the Americans were not even in Iraq, before the 91 war, Uday was never even asked anything for killing his servant, it was all in the arab newspapers at that time. But nobody in Iraq or even outside had the courage to ask for justice, he roamed on the streets, and his brutality increased. The list kept on growing on and on, we never asked for any justice at that time. So at this stage and time we should not just lambaste the Americans on how justice was carried out.
It's important to remember that soldiers prefer to capture the enemy for the information that can be gained. I am sure that it was highly considered. A larger consideration would have been the embarrassment had they escaped out some tunnel, or some booby trap killed 10 soldiers. The worst outcome would have been them escaping, and becoming mythological figures to the remaining Baathists, or to become folk heros by causing lots of deaths in their last moments.
There are many former regime members who have been captured, and should be tried. Hopfully the Iraqis will have the opportunity for true and honest justice.
I agree with Naida, first off the US nor any other country has the right to KILL another country's leader or their families. Saddam and his son did kill many people and did many other things, but who are we to play God, that is up to God to deal with them not us.
2nd, something just does not seem to add up here. First off Saddam's 2 son's would never and have never been together, ever, let along bringing their kids along. And why would these 2 guys stay with a guy that their father once jailed? If the bodies were burned badly, then how could they right away tell who they were? If it turns out to be them, then the US will show them on TV to prove to the world, because thats how they do things. But if they don't, then I will never believe them, like how I have not believed them in the past about other things. 100% solid proof is all we need. Other then that, I will believe it, like I have still not believed many things that the US has done or has told us.
p.s
For all those who don't like my comments, or don't like what I just said, plzz spare me and yourselves the trouble. B/c I really don't care and will ever care!
