Sad state of Muslims today

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

This is for imam hanbal?

[QUOTE]
If there is ikhtilaf then we have more freedom to adopt different views without having to do takfir on each other ... And that is what it comes down to ... The fact is exactly that ... To do more in emulation of the mothers of the believers is simple straightforward ... But those who do not ... What about them? What about those who believe that they do not have to do exactly as the mothers of the believers ... What about them? After the passing of RasoolAllah (SAW) they were forbidden from marrying again ... Is that to be followed by all Muslim ladies?
[/QUOTE]

again, its 'non-issue' and an excuse to express hatred against other school of thoughts. comandment is specific for umahat in the case you mentioned. Can you show me where niqab is mentioned specifically for ummahat ul momineen and sahabiat?

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

No ... I can't even show any reference for "niqab" let alone if they were directed just at the mother of the believers - can you?

And I'm not generating hatred ... I'm defending the position of wearing niqab but I am also defending the position of not wearing it. I'm very clearly describing that our world view of Islam should be in gradient shades and not in patches of black and white.

The strict Deobandi position is to wear full parda ... I also know that mureedahs of Shaykh Nuh - Shadhilis (Sufis) and Shafi's are required to wear niqab at least before they attend his gatherings. So it is not as though I am against the niqab ... Please try to understand that.

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

I am not saying about whether it is fard or not.
I was telling you that your argument of not re-marrying is invalid as that commandment was specific to Umahat ul momineen Where-as Niqab was observed by Umahat ul momineen and followed by sahabiat. altleast, we can follow niqab as sunnah of Umahat ul momineen.

My point is, why fight over these 'technicalities' when we have many other issues need to be addressed regarding normalizing the relations among different groups of Muslim Ummah?

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

Well I seek consistency in instructions that are given to us and I follow ulema who look for areas where ease can be made for the ummah without bending the religion ... But in the case of fighting ... I agree with you .. so what are the big issues? I don't think there are any issues worth arguing over.

Can we be inclusive? I certainly am that, inshaAllah.

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

Please name another such issue. It seems for every situation we use the same line: 'why-are-we-arguing-about-this-when-there-are-more-important-matters etc. So, what are those issues? I do think there are some grave social issues effecting Muslims in general today and lack of knowledge is one but opinions are dime a dozen, the other is disciplinary behavioural - almost no actions, all talk.

Psyah, thanks for laughing at my number 9 :(

On to numero 8: Permissibility of an eye-for-an-eye. Prohibited today.

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

Peace Sister Scherbatsky

You have really got a focused mind MashaAllah ... All this diversion of thread topic and you have the knack for pulling it back ... Yes, if we are to take the OP seriously we need to indent if the top things that we have been doing to imitate the people before us ... I counted 3 ... we are on number 7 now ... ?

Would you you say that changing and altering the times we pray as being another?

I think all the malls and fast food that we have in the Muslim world qualifies here too, in terms of imitating the non-Muslims.

Eye-4-Eye?... Please elaborate ... I think I know where you are going with this, but please explain first.

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

^It's Sistah Scherbatsky.

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

Thanks ... I actually thought for a second it was a sister, but reconsidered because of the odd name ... But the writing style is definitely female.

Apologies to Scherbatsky

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

go to sufis they will award you relaxations as many as you want :D
on a serious note, the issue of deciding whether niqab is fardh or wajib is pertinent as these type of issues were the basis for the sufis of egypt to support the massacre by secularists.
btw, whats left if they prove you secular law is Islamic law?

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

5:45: “And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution.”

Kid gets punched in school, loses a tooth, but is not allowed to punch back (I understand forgiveness is better) but although punching back is totally permissible, it is prohibited today. Why, where did you think I was going with this?

RV, please don’t reveal any of my secrets. :mad:

ajazali: I didn’t mean relaxations. So you’re agreeing now that it’s a pertinent issue?

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

you mean less intensity to more intensity?
or, mamati > hayati > hyati(sufis) pro brelvis sufis > sufis with music > sufis condemning sharia?

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

for me confronting with opinion of Imam hanbal(r.a) is 'non-issue'. for some, its major as for examle, sufis of egypt had such differences with Ikhwanis, so they didnt like like their govt and supported secularists in killing ikhwanis.

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

ZeeshanParvez, you have raised a very good topic. Holy Prophet PBUH has warned His ummah that there will come a time when muslim ummah will be resembling so much like previous people ( jews and christians ), as you rightly quoted the hadith. Unfortunately, we see that Muslims have infact became like previous people, despite prophet's warning. We see that majority of Muslims have made their scholars as God, and by that i dont mean that they worship them. What I mean is that they agree to anything they say and disagree to anything that they say without thinking themselves. We see that today's Muslims claim to be on the right path because they say scholars that they like are on the same path. We see that today's Muslims would declare anyone kafir just because their scholars have told them they are kaafir. We see that majority of Muslims will not speak up against any of the scholar even if its apparent that they're wrong. It's like we have left our deen entirely on our scholars. Declaring halal anything that they say is halal, and declaring haram anything that they say is haram.

Not only that, you will see any scholar giving fatwa of killings and the followers just simply say labbaik without asking a single question.

What's makes this hadith even more powerful is the fulfilment of the fact that Muslims also demand the same questions answered that jews ask even to this day. We all know that jews rejected the Messiah because He did not fulfill the literal conditions set in their scripture. Unfortunately, Muslims are going through the same phase.

The only way of getting out of this, is to remove the pride in Muslims that they are on the right path. Islam is indeed the true religion, but the beliefs that we have set according to our own likings must be reviewed. We must see all these issues with clear mind and pray to Allah to not lead us to astray. We should refrain from following the footsteps of Jews.

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

^Oh, sorry.

It used to be Brother Scherbatsky…before the “uprayshun.”

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

Yes, that is the entire problem. Allah (SWT) has given us the ability to reason and he has given us the Quran and way of His Messenger (PBUH). While scholars are an important of the Ummah since they have been called the inheritors of the Prophets, this does not mean that everything they say should be taken without understanding the reasoning behind their verdicts.

There is a big difference between Taqleed (blind following) and Itiba (following after seeing evidences). All four Imams of Ahulul Sunnah declared Taqleed haram. Itiba, on the other hand, is permissible. Unfortunately, in todays era there is so much stress on Talqeed that people take everything they are told without questioning anything. They are told that they do not have the intellect to understand matters which is not only degrading but a way, in my opinion, to force the masses into following whatever one says. Here I quote, in both Arabic and English translation with references, regarding what the great scholars of the past said about blind following.

Taqleed has been defined in Islamic jurisprudence as the blind faollowing of an opinion without having any knowledge of the evidence from which the opinion was derived. Here are some quotes regarding Taqleed by the four Imams.

قال ابن القيم في أعلام الموقعين : وقد نهى الأئمة الأربعة عن تقليدهم ، وذموا من أخذ أقوالهم بغير حجة. ( أعلام الموقعين 2 / 200 ) .

Ibn Al-Qayyim said: The four Imams forbade making Taqleed, the blind following, of them. And they censored he who took from their sayings without a Hujjah (proof).

وقال ابن حزم : وقد ذكرنا أن مالكا وأبا حنيفة والشافعي لم يقلدوا ، ولا أجازوا لأحد أن يقلدهم ، ولا أن يقلد غيرهم. ( الإحكام في أصول الأحكام 6 / 314 )

Ibn Hazam said: And we have mentioned that Maalik and Abu Hanifah and Shafi did not permit anyone to blindly follow them or blindly follow anyone else

1 - أبو حنيفة رحمه الله

Abu Hanifah said

  • ( لا يحل لأحد أن يأخذ بقولنا ما لم يعلم من أين أخذناه ) . ( ابن عابدين في " حاشيته على البحر الرائق " 6 / 293 ).

It is not permitted for anyone to take from our sayings (i.e our rulings in respect to Religion) as long as he does not know from where we took these rulings.

وفي رواية : ( حرام على من لم يعرف دليلي أن يفتي بكلامي )

It is Haram on him who does not recognize my evidence to pass a Fatwa based on my sayings.

زاد في رواية : ( فإننا بشر نقول القول اليوم ونرجع عنه غدا )

And in another narration he said: We are only human. We say a saying today and turn away from it tomorrow.

وفي أخرى : ( ويحك يا يعقوب ( هو أبو يوسف ) لا تكتب كل ما تسمع مني فإني قد أرى الرأي اليوم وأتركه غدا وأرى الرأي غدا وأتركه بعد غد ).

O Yaqoob (he is his student Abu Yusuf) Do not write everything you hear from me for verily I have an opinion today and I abandon it tomorrow and I have an opinion tomorrow and I abandon it the day after

  • ( لا يحل لأحد أن يقول بقولنا حتى يعلم من أين قلناه ) ( أعلام الموقعين 2 / 200 ).

It is not permissible for anyone to say according to what we have said until he recognizes from where we said it.

  • ( لا يحل لمن يفتي من كتبي أن يفتي حتى يعلم من أين قلت ) (الانتقاء ، ص 145 ).

It is not permissible for anyone to pass a religious verdict (Fatwa) from my book until he knows from where I said it.

2- مالك بن أنس رحمه الله

Imam Maalik said
**
* وأما الإمام مالك بن أنس رحمه الله فقد فقال :
- ( إنما أنا بشر أخطئ وأصيب فانظروا في رأيي فكل ما وافق الكتاب والسنة فخذوه وكل ما لم يوافق الكتاب والسنة فاتركوه ) . ( ابن عبد البر في الجامع 2 / 32 ).**

Verily I am only human I make mistakes and I come upon correct judgement. So look into my opinions and all of those opinions which are in accordance with the Book and the Sunnah then take them and those which are not in accordance with the Book and the Sunnah then abandon them.

  • ( ليس أحد بعد النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم إلا ويؤخذ من قوله ويترك إلا النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ) . ( ابن عبد البر في الجامع 2 / 91 )

  • *قال ابن وهب : سمعت مالكا سئل عن تخليل أصابع الرجلين في الوضوء فقال : ليس ذلك على الناس . قال : فتركته حتى خف الناس فقلت له : عندنا في ذلك سنة فقال : وما هي قلت : حدثنا الليث بن سعد وابن لهيعة وعمرو بن الحارث عن يزيد بن عمرو المعافري عن أبي عبد الرحمن الحنبلي عن المستورد بن شداد القرشي قال : رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يدلك بخنصره ما بين أصابع رجليه . فقال : إن هذا الحديث حسن وما سمعت به قط إلا الساعة ثم سمعته بعد ذلك يسأل فيأمر بتخليل الأصابع . ( مقدمة الجرح والتعديل لابن أبي حاتم ص 31 - 32 )
    *

    He was asked about passing the fingers between the toes of the feat and he said that it is not necessary. Then he was told that there is a Sunnah in regards to this matter and he asked what it is and the following Hadith was presented to him

I saw the Prophet(PBUH) rub that which is between the fingers of his feet by means of his little finger.

and he (Maalik) said I had never heard of this Hadith until now and it is Authentic and after that he would order with passing of fingers through the feet during Wudu.

Imam Shafi said

  • ( أجمع المسلمون على أن من استبان له سنة عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لم يحل له أن يدعها لقول أحد ) . ( الفلاني ص 68 ).

The Muslims have unanimously agreed that he to whom the Sunnah becomes evident on behalf of the Propet(PBUH) then it is not permissible for him to leave it for the saying of anyone else

- ( أنتم أعلم بالحديث والرجال مني فإذا كان الحديث الصحيح فأعلموني به أي شيء يكون : كوفيا أو بصريا أو شاميا حتى أذهب إليه إذا كان صحيحا ) ( الخطيب في الاحتجاج بالشافعي 8 / 1 ).

You are more knowledgeable than me in respect to Hadith and its chain of narrators so when a Hadith is Authentic then inform me of it whichever thing it may be Basari or Kufi or Shami so that I may go toward it when it be Authentic.

- ( كل مسألة صح فيها الخبر عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عند أهل النقل بخلاف ما قلت فأنا راجع عنها في حياتي وبعد موتي ) . ( أبو نعيم في الحلية 9 / 107 ).

Every affair in respect to which there is an authentic Hadith from the Prophet (PBUH), it being authentic in the opinion of those who transmit Hadith, and is opposed to what I say then I have withdrawn from what I have said in my life and after my death.

- ( كل ما قلت فكان عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم خلاف قولي مما يصح فحديث النبي أولى فلا تقلدوني ) ( ابن عساكر بسند صحيح 15 / 9 / 2 ).

Everything that I say and there is from the Propet(PBUH) an authentic Hadith opposing it then the Hadith of the Prophet is better (so act according to it) and do not blindly follow me.

  • *وروى ابن حزم بسنده عن المازني ، عن الشافعي أنه نهى الناس عن تقليده وتقليد غيره ( *

Shafi forbade people from making Taqleed of him or anyone else.

الإحكام في أصول الأحكام 6 / 174 ) .

  • ونقل السيوطي عن الإمام أبي شامة أنه قال : نهى إمامنا الشافعي عن تقليده وتقليد غيره ( الرد على من أخلد إلى الأرض ، ص 141 ).

It has that transmitted that our Imam forbade blind following, Taqlid, of him or of anyone else.

4 - أحمد بن حنبل رحمه الله

Ahmed bin Hanbal
* قال رحمه الله :

  • ( لا تقلدني ولا تقلد مالكا ولا الشافعي ولا الأوزاعي ولا الثوري وخذ من حيث أخذوا ) . ( ابن القيم في إعلام الموقعين 2 / 302 ).

Do not make Taqlid of me or Maalik or Au-Zaa'e or Al-Thauri and instead take your knowledge from where you take it.
**

وفي رواية : ( لا تقلد دينك أحدا من هؤلاء ما جاء عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وأصحابه فخذ به ثم التابعين بعد الرجل فيه مخير ).
وقال مرة : ( الاتباع أن يتبع الرجل ما جاء عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وعن أصحابه ثم هو من بعد التابعين مخير ) . ( أبو داود في مسائل **

Do not make your religion the blind following of someone from among these. A man should follow what has been transmitted from the Prophet (PBUH) and the Companions.
**
الإمام أحمد ص 276 - 277 ).
- ( رأي الأوزاعي ورأي مالك ورأي أبي حنيفة كله رأي وهو عندي سواء وإنما الحجة في الآثار ) ( ابن عبد البر في الجامع 2 / 149 ).**

The opinion of Abu Hanifah and Maalik are all opinions and they are in my sight the same. Verily Hujjah is only in the traditions.

  • ( *من رد حديث رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فهو على شفا هلكة ) ( ابن الجوزي في المناقب ( *

He who refutes the Hadith of the Prophet(PBUH) then he is on the brink of destruction.

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

No ... I wouldn't put it like that bro.

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

Peace Sister Scherbatsky

Your gender is not a secret … Well it should not be … I’m not sure this law applies to children being allowed to punch each other’s teeth out … Children are under the radar of shar’iah … However, I’m sure making a fuss over it through civil court case will lead to the culprits parents paying for the resultant dental surgery. But thinking again I think you are right … In Arab counties if the accidentally kill or harm a foreigner there is no real penalty and vice versa can be quite a harsh punishment. Ok let’s include eye-4-eye on the list purely because justice is served partially these days just as they used to do in the past.

I think this preventing Muslims from entering other Muslim countries is also a strange new intervention. But I’m not sure it was ever clearly permissible and became forbidden later on.

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

Peace ZeeshanParvez

If you sat with Mr. Popat for while he would be saying that you too are making your scholars in to God … :hehe: His agreement with you is fake as further discussion will prove, but I’m not sure he will take the bait.

My contention is that if we are affected then we are all affected … Not just those groups who you disagree with … For verily finger-pointing at other groups being wrong is exactly what previous people did.

we can read those Hadith that you posted and we can make our own minds up … As you suggested … But let’s put our own selves under the microscope not other people.

I personally do not see our scholars changing the meaning of ahadith … Rather I see a great effort by them to preserve the texts and the meanings. We can meanings being preserved through oral traditions and poetry … If we pick up Hadith texts without really knowing about previous culture or without having sat with scholars who have unbroken chains of tutelage then we will read and come to our own understandings … That is a big danger.

We should not become people who reduce the importance of our scholars on account of the references you have provided … The difference between the scholars of the Jews and Christians from our scholars is the fiqh sciences and the honesty … The scholars of the past religions were paid to hide knowledge and give preferential treatment to certain people … I don’t think our scholars are corrupt like that … If they are then let’s see who are hiding Hadith and who are not look at the whole picture …

And by the way … Nice long list of references … But you know if what you say is right about itiba or (verification) then I can’t accept what you have written until I have read these myself … From the books that you have taken them from assuming you did actually take them books and not some website, well after I find each of these in the books that you given I need to ascertain who compiled the books and who translated them, and verify their translations too, if they cited other books then I have to seek those out too … Until I can say that I have got something that I can prove through a chain of transmission that goes to those people … But since you have given us these quotes and you believe in itiba then hopefully you would surely have done this effort yourself … So please for all of these references can you provide the chains as well? If not … did you do any taqleed of the website, translation or any of the above yourself?

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

ok, what do you say about the gradiant i mentioned?

Re: Sad state of Muslims today

First, people can make up their minds as to what they understand from what I have posted. I really, don’t have the time to get into arguments.

Second, the Hadith is of general import 'Aam in meaning. No one is excepted. The whole Ummah is included and everything is pretty clear as how we are following in their footsteps. Drinking, alcohol, fornication, music, waste of time, arguing, discussing issues related to the Zaat of Allah, making blind following of scholars even when they tell you Istighatha is allowed. Again, like I said I am not going to go into any debate. Debates lead to finger pointing at certain individuals and this spikes up the emotions of those who love those people.

Third, I do not know what you mean by finger pointing in my post. I have simply put down the Hadith in this matter. I have not pointed out any scholar or shiekh or anyone else who has hidden Hadith. However, let me give an example. The author of Darul Mukhtar has put fabricated Hadith in his Book about Abu Hanifah which are
**

وعنه عليه الصلاة والسلام { إن آدم افتخر بي وأنا أفتخر برجل من أمتي اسمه نعمان وكنيته أبو حنيفة ، هو سراج أمتي } وعنه عليه الصلاة والسلام { إن سائر الأنبياء يفتخرون بي وأنا أفتخر بأبي حنيفة ، من أحبه فقد أحبني ، ومن أبغضه فقد أبغضني }
**
"He (PBUH) said Verily Adam does Fakhar of me and I do Fakhar of a man (who will be) from my Ummah whose name is Nuaman and his Kunyah is Abu Hanfiah. He is the siraaj of my Ummah.

And He (PBUH) said Verily all of the Prophets do Fakhar of me and I do Fakhar of Abu Hanifah, he who loves him then he has loved me and he who shows dissent to him has shown dissent to me."

You can view the entire book Radul Mukhtar which is the Sharah of this book online here . The link will take you to the exact page where these narrations are present.

Both these narrations have been rejected by the Muhaditheen of the past and even the Hanafis of the present have rejected them. This shows that there is information present and has been circulating in the Ummah which is not authentic and one cannot do Taqleed (blind following).

Fourth, in terms of Jurisprudence the word Talqeed is not applied to taking information from a website.

Fifth, I did not take the translations. I translated them. I by the Grace of Allah know how to read Arabic.

If you want to access those books then you can download the Makktaba Shamila (simply click on the link) which consists of over 6000 books on Islamic sciences and confirm these yourself.

Hopefully, you know how to read Arabic which I doubt since if did you would not need to verify the translation as the Arabic is right above what I have written below!