Sachin's best in the world, but...

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1

And when i say that Miandad, King Viv and Gavaskar are of same class and Tendulkar is not from that class (despite being a great batsman) because he is NOT a MATCH WINNER, some ppl gets irritated and argue for the sake of argument

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Sachin’s best in the world, but is he a match-winner?

Tapan Joshi
Mumbai, August 5, 2002

A dream of a lifetime was realised a few years ago when I got an opportunity to meet and talk cricket with Sir Isaac Vivian Alexander Richards. During the course of the interview, I remembered asking him about his favourite Test innings and was stunned because the great man chose above all his masterpieces a 36-ball knock of 61 against India at Jamaica in 1982-83 series.

He went on to explain, “A lot of people talk about my 291 and other hundreds. They are all special to me but this is my best Test innings. I was pretty down at that time with a broken thumb and went into that match with no practice whatsoever. The Indians had set us a target of 172 runs in 26 overs and everyone thought the game would be a draw. Suddenly, Clive (Lloyd) decided to have a go at the target and gave me a license to play my shots.”

Recalling his greatest individual triumph, Sir Viv went on, “I was in pain but I couldn’t resist the challenge of achieving something for the team. I just went beserk, hitting fours and sixes off Venkat and the rest of the Indian bowling. We won with four balls to spare.” I got a little insight on how the original Master Blaster’s mind worked when he put on that maroon West Indian cap. What matters most in the end, according to him, was the result and not individual average.

There has been a lot of debate of late about Sachin Tendulkar being the best batsman in the world. He certainly is, there is no doubt about it. Tendulkar is streets ahead of his contemporaries. The question to ask, however, is Tendulkar the greatest match-winner of his era? Is he a match-winner at all?

How many Tests has he pulled off while chasing a target? How many times has he been able to conquer 11 opposition players and the mind demons when he is pushed to the limit? Sadly, the statistics reveal a sorry picture. Let me quickly add that I don’t subscribe to the balderdash that Steve Waugh and Brian Lara are greater match-winners than Tendulkar. No, they are not, and statistically, it has been proved as well.

While Tendulkar averages almost 35 when India are chasing a fourth innings target, Brian Lara is about 34 and Steve Waugh a pathetic 25. So there goes the theory out of the window that the West Indian and the Australian are bigger match-winners than Tendulkar.

**My point is whether Tendulkar be put on the same pedestal as someone like Sir Viv, or Sunil Gavaskar, or Javed Miandad? Tendulkar may break the trio’s batting records but didn’t the three above mentioned batsmen contributed more to their respective teams? Gavaskar was simply amazing when India chased a target. He averaged a phenomenal 58.25 runs while chasing a fourth innings target in 70 Tests, out of which 19 resulted in a win and one was a tie. Gavaskar’s overall average, in fact, is 51.12.

Miandad and Sir Viv too averaged quite high in the fourth innings of a Test. The Pakistani great, whose overall average in Test cricket is 52.57, averages 54.40 in 66 Tests, helping his team win 29 of those Tests. The West Indian stalwart too averaged 47.94 in the fourth innings chase, helping his team to an astounding 49 wins in 83 Tests. Remarkable. **

Whether he likes it or not, whether he accepts it or not, there is no denying the fact that not being able to perform in the crunch remains a blemish on Tendulkar’s otherwise splendid Test record. In fact, his two colleagues in the Indian team - skipper Saurav Ganguly with a batting average of just over 40 and vice-captain Rahul Dravid with almost 45 in the fourth innings of a match - score a point over him in that department.

Agreed, greatness cannot be measured alone by statistics and Tests are won more often than not by the bowlers. But here, the role of the bowlers is almost negated as a fourth innings chase is solely in the hands of batsmen. This is a true Test of a match-winner, and 49 wins out of 83 Tests makes Sir Viv what he is - a real champion.

In academics, a top ranker may not always be the most intelligent student. Tendulkar, without doubt the best in the world today, has a lot of catching up to do if he has to be counted among the likes of Sir Viv or Gavaskar or Miandad. And I think the Little Champion knows it as well. He is now at the height of his powers.

Will the tide turn?
[Source=cricketnext.com]

If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame.

[This message has been edited by BAYWAQOOF (edited August 05, 2002).]

2

Very good analysis.

It wold be inetersting to find out how Alan Border rates as a match winner?

3

Another of those Sachin Bashing threads.

AK

4

Namaste Asif_K.

Why do you believe this is a Sachin bashing thread?. The article raises a very good question about match winning innings in the final innings of a test match.

No doubt Sachin is one of the greats. However, only his record as a match winner is being quesioned?

A question to ask would be: 'if your life depended on a player to score 80 runs in the last 11 overs of a test match's last innings, who would you pick a) Miandad b) Viv c) Border or d) Tendulkar ?

Looking at the record, I am sure majority would not pick Sachin, even though his first innings record is probabily the best.

[This message has been edited by 2bornot2b (edited August 05, 2002).]

5

[quote]
Originally posted by 2bornot2b:
*Why do you believe this is a Sachin bashing thread?. The article raises a very good question about match winning innings in the final innings of a test match. *
[/quote]

Because there are so many threads on Sachin not being a match winner, still BAYWAQOOF decides to open a new thread. Test matches are not won on last day's performance - A team has to perform consistently for at least 3(out of 5) days to win a test match.

[quote]
No doubt Sachin is one of the greats. However, only his record as a match winner is being quesioned?
[/quote]

If he is not a match winner, then no one is.

[quote]
*A question to ask would be: 'if your life depended on a player to score 80 runs in the last 11 overs of a test match's last innings, who would you pick a) Miandad b) Viv c) Border or d) Tendulkar ? *
[/quote]

My answer would be NONE of them - Coz, none of the above batsmen have ever scored 80 runs in last 11 overs of last innings of a TEST match. If you are talking about doing that in ODIs then Sachin has done that more often than any of the above legends.

[quote]
Looking at the record, I am sure majority would not pick Sachin, even though his first innings record is probabily the best.
[/quote]

On this forum, YES. But, this is the same forum where Shahid Afridi was declared Next Viv Richards and Bradman a horrible batsman. And One gentleman also claimed that Sachin was allowed to score 10000 runs in ODIs.

AK

6

AOA

I would not even think about players like Gavaskar, Tendulkur and Miandad to be compared with the greatest batsman ever.

Even all 3 combined can not win matches for their respective countries than the number of times The King has won for Windies.

He was simply the best!

7

Namaste Asif_K.

The last innings is the most important. Test matches are won, lost or drawn in a team’s last ‘innings’ performance. You either have to bowl the opposition out in their last innings, or score the required runs in your last innings, or bat out the last innings to save a match.

Unfortunately, you fail to understand the reason for my question about scoring 80 runs in 11 overs to WIN a match. Under the pressures of SECOND innings of a TEST MATCH, how many people would bet their life on Sachin getting the required runs, or even stay in to save the match? The first test against England has once again shown that when it really mattered, Sachin did not perform in the 2nd innings of a TEST match. Ok, forget about winning, he did not even perform appropriately to allow India to save the match.

Please do not take this as Sachin bashing. Just take it as facts. Who knows, Sachin, still being relatively young, can mature into a match winner in addition to being one of the best FIRST innings performer.

8

[quote]
Originally posted by 2bornot2b:
*The last innings is the most important. Test matches are won, lost or drawn in a team’s last ‘innings’ performance. You either have to bowl the opposition out in their last innings, or score the required runs in your last innings, or bat out the last innings to save a match. *
[/quote]

On the contarary, test matches are won on the first 3 days performance of a team. On last day how many runs a team has to score to win the game depends heavily on their first innings score as well as how they bowled in first innings. If you bat well and score 500 runs in first innings of a test match it is almost certain that you will not loose the match and it will be either a draw or a win.

[quote]
*Unfortunately, you fail to understand the reason for my question about scoring 80 runs in 11 overs to WIN a match. Under the pressures of SECOND innings of a TEST MATCH, how many people would bet their life on Sachin getting the required runs, or even stay in to save the match? *
[/quote]

I understand the reason very well and that's why I said no batsman in your list has done it before so why single out Sachin ? Why not Javed, Gavaskar or Border or even Richards. btw, here is some food for thought, 2nd innings batting of all the batting greats :-



Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

Javed(44 approx.)
48   44   6  1512 160* 107   92   39.78   2  10   1
36   22   7   816 103* 102   79   54.40   2   5   1

Sachin(45 approx.)

31   31   4  1432 155* 126* 124*  53.03   6   6   2
36   30   8   769 136  119*  86   34.95   2   2   2


Richards(49 approx.) 

41   37   5  1584 182* 135  123   49.50   4   9   2
50   24   5   911 109* 101   98   47.94   2   6   3


Gavaskar (51 approx.)
60   57   4  2565 220  182* 137   48.39   7  14   2
34   33   9  1398 221  117* 113   58.25   4   8   2


Border (55 approx.)

81   76  21  3511 163  153  152*  63.83   9  22   2
51   35  10   860 123* 105   66*  34.40   2   2   2

[quote]
*The first test against England has once again shown that when it really mattered, Sachin did not perform in the 2nd innings of a TEST match. Ok, forget about winning, he did not even perform appropriately to allow India to save the match. *
[/quote]

Yeah right, now when he is not performing very well, you take an example of one test failure and sum his entire career performance in that.

[quote]
Please do not take this as Sachin bashing. Just take it as facts. Who knows, Sachin, still being relatively young, can mature into a match winner in addition to being one of the best FIRST innings performer.
[/quote]

It's a Sachin Bashing thread, everyday on some thread he is being bashed, aaccept it or not.

AK

9

Asif, I can't see the stats and I'm dying to read them as you know. So, can you please, expand them and then post them?

Thanks

Waiting for your stats,

samb

10

[quote]
Originally posted by Asif_k:

It's a Sachin Bashing thread, everyday on some thread he is being bashed, aaccept it or not.
**
[/quote]

Why are you complaining here, if these are Sachin bashing threads then go and complain to your own countrymen who are writing these articles, be it Gavaskar or anyone else.

Or is it that they are saying what you dont want to hear, after all, according to you the "god" can't do any wrong he is just "perfect".

[This message has been edited by ehsan (edited August 06, 2002).]

11

Namaste Asif_K.

Itna Ghusa kewn kartay ho?

What is it that you are trying to show with your stats?. Please elaborate?

Are the first column of the first 2 rows refer to the number of test matches played at home and away? If yes, then Javed Miandad’s record does not tally, as he has played 124 test matches? Please, please, please, give full information rather than letting us guess as to what you are trying to prove.

The way I see it, this thread is not about Sachin bashing. It is comparing records of some great players.

[This message has been edited by 2bornot2b (edited August 06, 2002).]

12

[quote]
Originally posted by ehsan:
** Why are you complaining here, if these are Sachin bashing threads then go and complain to your own countrymen who are writing these articles, be it Gavaskar or anyone else. **
[/quote]

Did Gavaskar or others also use the terms like 'SISSY MASTER', TA**IKAR', 'OVER RATED' and what not ? Criticism is one thing , hurling abuses is another.

[quote]
** Or is it that they are saying what you dont want to hear, after all, according to you the "god" can't do any wrong he is just "perfect".
**
[/quote]

He is no GOD and far from perfect, It's You and others on this forum who are analyzing every failure of his and declare him as 'NOT MATCH WINNING' every time he fails. Why dont you realize that it is a team game and he alone cant win matches for India ?

AK

13

[quote]
Originally posted by 2bornot2b:
*Are the first column of the first 2 rows refer to the number of test matches played at home and away? If yes, then Javed Miandad’s record does not tally, as he has played 124 test matches? *
[/quote]

First Column is for the 2nd innings while batting first (3rd innings of the test)
2nd column is for the 2nd innings of the test while batting 2nd (4th innings of the test)

[quote]
*The way I see it, this thread is not about Sachin bashing. It is comparing records of some great players.
*
[/quote]

Let's hope so. Looking at the past trends It didn't seem so. I would be glad to see it as a Sachin Criticism thread.

AK

14

No doubt about it, virtually all of us agree to the subject of the thread...

15

I see only naughty uncle asif not agreeing to the report which was mentioned above by BAYWAQOOF out of a dozen indian guppies (as far as i know) on this gupshup forum. Oh well I guess its normal as along as its naughty uncle asif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

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Uncle?

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yeah he’s been declared uncle of the gupshup land

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

18

And you are delared POONCH WALA of the GUPSHUP

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

AK