sabaya

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *

But now I can clearly see how some muslims give such bad name to Islam, even if they are well-intentioned. And really now there is nothing to complain when we see pics of Abu Gharib. You guys will do much worse, if you get a chance. All in the name of Islam, ofcourse.
[/QUOTE]

and you say you guys? i dont think i am in AQ or any other organization, so dude dont get me in trouble...haha
any how, no islam does not allow humiliation of any one. we cant force homosexual acts on any one. we cant mutilate the dead. in islam the death only comes in war or execution or for ilsamic laws such as adultry and homosexuality and all. so how can you compare islamic law with what happened in abu gharib?

but my question is that are we comfortable with sunnah or not?slavery was abolished by kuffar, not prophet, so we cant say its gone and aint coming back. just answer it, are you ashamed of the act done by rasul and his sahabas? if you are not ashamed then why condemn it now or if u r then i dont know what to say.

The basaic issue of having women slaves from war is not a trivial one. I am cut pasting a sort of discussion on this topic:

Source: http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00002047.aspx

I apologize for the length read.

Sex with slaves and women’s rights

Answered by Shaykh Gibril Haddad

Sex with slaves and women’s rights

Wa `alaykum as-Salam wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh:

The following is a response on the issues of female slaves in Islam in reply to two sets of questions.

THE FIRST SET OF QUESTIONS

I came across tafseer of the beginning verses of Surat-Al-Mu’minoon (Al-Mawdudi), [The Yusuf Ali translation reads, “who abstain from sex, except with those joined in the marriage bond [spouses], or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,-for (in their case) they are free of blame.”] and I was kind of shocked and surprised that he states it is permissible for a man to have sexual intercourse with female slaves in his possession, in addition to his legal wives (v.5-6).

Was. Slavery is unlawful (1) in the absence of the Caliph of the Muslims AND (2) unless it results from captives following a lawful war. Even so, there was always the alternative to {let the captives go free, either with or without any ransom} (47:4). Furthermore, the Ottoman Caliphate had declared - long before the US Abolition - that it prohibited slavery in its realm.

Further preliminary remarks before addressing the questions:

It should be clear that Islam raised the status of slaves higher than that of free men in un-Islamic societies even by modern standards. The author of The House of Saud, an American journalist, recounts how the staff and management of the New York Waldorf-Astoria hotel were horrified that King Faysal in an early US visit had not only allowed his black servant into the state dining room but had seated him at his very table - a “white-only” table in a “white-only” room! They had no idea that even slaves in Islam had to be FED and CLOTHED with the same food and clothing as their owner as the Prophet, upon him peace, had stipulated in his “last pilgrimage” speech:

“And your slaves! see that you feed them such food as you eat yourselves and dress them with what you yourself wear. And if they commit a mistake which you are not inclined to forgive then sell them, for they are the servants of Allah and are not to be tormented!”

In another hadith he said, upon him blessings and peace:

“Be kind to slaves as to your own children…and those that say their prayers are your brethren.”

A contemporary commentator said:

“The masters were obliged not to put slaves under hardship; slaves were not to be tortured, abused or treated unjustly. They could marry among themselves - with their master’s permission - or with free men or women! They could appear as witnesses and participate with free men in all affairs. Many of them were appointed as governors, commanders of army and administrators. In the eyes of Islam, a pious slave has precedence over an impious free man.” Al-Tabataba’i, Tafsir (16:338-358).

What ignorant times we live in, in which a nation that used a legally - enforceable concept of “white-only” since its inception and then went on to use it for two centuries, now crusades against Islam and the rest of the world over self-proclaimed civilizational values.

Islam restored dignity to slaves and enhanced their social status both by ancient and modern standards.

Islam made no distinction between a slave or a free man, all were treated with equality. It was this fact that attracted non-Muslim slaves to Islam in droves.

As someone said, it is sad to see that those who never cease to be vociferous in their unjust criticism of Islam remain blind to this principle of equality when even in this age there are countries where laws are made that discriminate against the vast majority of population to keep them in practical servitude.

As for the allegations of slavery made by the US and UK against Islamic Sudan they are part of a joint missionary and government rogue propaganda campaign against an Islamic government which has always condemned and actively repressed instances of abuse in inter-tribal warfare, while there has never been anything remotely near a full-fledged slave trade, cf. the Sudan Foundation papers by David Hoile posted in full: http://www.sufo.demon.co.uk/politics.htm

What follows concerns the Fiqhi rulings pertaining to the slave period even if the present tense is used.

I’m far too ignorant to make judgments about the verse and that hukum taken from it, so I wanted to ask if you could explain the verse, if that opinion is generally accepted and why. Do these verses refer solely to men, or women Believers also?

These verses refer to the permissibility of a man for intercourse with his unmarried female slaves without having to marry them. Such an option was not available to women owners of male slaves nor to men owners of married female slaves.

Is it in order to fulfill his desires and avoid any unlawful fitna? (this is hard for me to understand, seeing as how taqwa, self-restraint, and other things are so emphasized in Islam)

His and her desires, yes, but within certain parameters including rights. This will be detailed insha Allah.

However, it seems that intercourse with slaves was probably considered a method of contraceptive sexual enjoyment through coitus interruptus (azl), since the slave owner could practice azl without prior permission from his slave mate while he could not do so with his free wife without prior permission from her. And if the contraception intended by this `azl failed and the slave woman still bore a child from her master, her child was automatically freed and obtained a son or daughter’s rights including inheritance. In addition, the mother herself could no longer be sold and was freed upon the owner’s death.

From the slave’s perspective, the above scenario could have formed an accepted kind of lawful gamble from which she stood to gain much more than to lose. This could be problematized with the claim that “the cost of freedom is therefore rape” but such is just an inflammatory rephrasing of the truism that the cost of a war captive’s life is her imprisonment; emancipation from which is a dramatically enhanced possibility in the above scenario.

Consider some more the dynamic of manumission in Islam. It took the French until the 1780’s and 1790’s through their “Revolution” and “Terror” to finally decide that any slave that steps into French territory automatically becomes free; but Islam had already said, 11 centuries earlier: a free parent’s newborn from a slave is free and that newborn inherits from his or her free parent.

Remaining part........

================================

In addition, Islam gave all slaves the inalienable right to buy themselves out, either on payment of an agreed sum or on completion of service for an agreed period. The legal term for this is mukataba and the slave party to such a written contract was called a mukatab or mukataba.

{And those of your slaves that seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if you are aware of any goodness in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah that He has bestowed upon you} (24:33).

{Alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarers; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is knower, Wise} (9:60).

{Righteous is he who believes in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and gives his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free} (2:177).

Note that the above verses stipulate that when a slave wants emancipation the master not only has to agree to it but is also directed to help the slave from his own wealth and from alms, which includes the public treasury (bayt al-mal), the only provision being the satisfaction that the slave would live a respectable life after earning his or her freedom!

In addition, if a non-Muslim slave accepted Islam before their masters, they would become free automatically. If the slave became blind or handicapped he would also become free.

In addition to these compulsory ways of emancipation, voluntary emancipation of slaves was declared as the purest form of charity and included providing the freedmen with sufficient means to earn their livelihood respectably. Thus, Islam is the first and only religion that has prescribed liberation of slaves as a virtue and a condition of genuine faith.

How is intercourse permissible without a marriage contract binding them?

Because the contract in place is that of property which includes the right to sexual enjoyment but excludes the abuses used under all other historical forms of slavery such as mutilation, inhumane labor, or killing as was the rule in Egyptian, Greek, and Roman times, and the cruelest of all forms, unparalleled in human history, the United States Transatlantic slave trade.(*)

(*) Incidentally, many scholars estimate that over 20 percent of Africans brought in bondage to both American continents and the Caribbean were Muslim.

If the man then later frees the slave-woman, and perhaps she has a child, would the man need to marry her? Is he still liable for child-support? Does he still raise his children as a father? Is the man allowed to do this with slaves that are not Muslim? (if so, under what conditions?) and is this woman entitled to any inheritance from him? I was under the impression that a person can only inherit by either marriage or blood-ties. wouldn't she be considered a "concubine"?

Yes, the word concubine literally means bed-mate and applies to any female slave that shares the bed of her master. The man is liable to support any child of his and whatever need of its mother that is related to that liability. He is not obliged to marry her but is definitely held to the responsibilities of a father including inheritability whether the mother is a Muslim or not, her child being Muslim. Nor is she entitled to any inheritance unless he decides to marry her AND she is Muslim. Allah knows best.

THE SECOND SET OF QUESTIONS

1- Is slavery allowed in Islam?

See the very first answer in this reply.

If not then what is the concept about female slaves that the right hand possesses? This phrase has been said in the quraan a few times.

Captives in a legitimate defensive war.

2- Why was sex with female slaves allowed?

There was no concept that it could or should not be.

If a man is married and he has a slave then why is he having sex with her?

Sex was part of the benefits to which the slave owner was entitled within the framework of rights already described.

I read that the prophet (pbuh) had a male child from his slave (Mariah). why should a married man have sex with a salve woman? Aren't their limitations to sexual desire?

Precisely, these limitations are those mentioned by the Qur'an.

Doesn't the slave have any rights?

Of course the slave has rights as we have already mentioned. In addition, in Islam, the slave even has rights to bring his or her owner before a law-court.

What happened to human rights in this whole scenario?

As we mentioned already, slavery and ransom were the alternatives to killing in war, but the slaves had to be fed and clothed with the same food and clothing as their owner, they could not be burdened with inhumane tasks, they could buy their freedoms, sue for their rights, and had other human rights that place Islamic ethics in the context of slavery above anything comparable in the ancient and modern worlds.

And when the slave gets pregnant there why doesn't the man have to marry her?

She and her child do obtain other rights as already mentioned but this is not one of them.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *

and you say you guys? i dont think i am in AQ or any other organization, so dude dont get me in trouble...haha
any how, no islam does not allow humiliation of any one. we cant force homosexual acts on any one. we cant mutilate the dead. in islam the death only comes in war or execution or for ilsamic laws such as adultry and homosexuality and all. so how can you compare islamic law with what happened in abu gharib?

but my question is that are we comfortable with sunnah or not?slavery was abolished by kuffar, not prophet, so we cant say its gone and aint coming back. just answer it, are you ashamed of the act done by rasul and his sahabas? if you are not ashamed then why condemn it now or if u r then i dont know what to say.
[/QUOTE]
To put it simply, I don't believe slavery has any place in modern world. It may be permitted back in early days of Islam. Thankfully its gone now. And gone for good. If you still want to fantasize about slavery, feel free. As I said, its your time and your mind.

And about your comment on Abu Gharib.... they were taking pictures of naked Iraqis (bad enough). You plan to capture women, make them slaves and have sex with them (regardless of their will). Which is worse? Just keep your answer simple.

you didnt answer my question. is the sunnah of rasul :saw: not worthy of being followed? is it worse than abu gharib according to your claims? would rasul :saw: be charged with war crimes were he to wage war today? would u say that he was “zalim” (oppressor) when he had sex with mariah, the mother of ibrahim, the son of rasul allah :saw:? just answer them first because the issue of “modern day” crap is of no value to islam which had been completed at the death of rasul :saw:
you should know that once evidence has been made clear if a person still follows his whims and desires, allah sends him astray…
Forbidden to you (for food) are: Al-Maytatah (the dead animals - cattle-beast not slaughtered), blood, the flesh of swine, and the meat of that which has been slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allâh, or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., or on which Allâh’s Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by the goring of horns - and that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal - unless you are able to slaughter it (before its death) _ and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on An_Nusub (stone altars). (Forbidden) also is to use arrows seeking luck or decision, (all) that is Fisqun (disobedience of Allâh and sin). This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allâh is Oft_Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Al-Ma’idah 5:3)

Those who reject Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are deaf and dumb in darkness. Allâh sends astray whom He wills and He guides on the Straight Path whom He wills. (Al-An’am 6:39)

Faisal, the guy has a point in some twisted way...

slavery may not exist NOW, lekin when it did, it was okay to have intercourse with the slave girl. And the Rasul practiced it, according to these accounts...

Now this means either all the accounts are wrong somehow...and the right hand really does not mean what we think it does...or it is right, but there is some sort of catch involved that has not been emphasized enough, and has been covered up by "scholarly" work...

or maybe it really is okay to screw the nurse captured from the war against her wishes...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
Faisal, the guy has a point in some twisted way...

slavery may not exist NOW, lekin when it did, it was okay to have intercourse with the slave girl. And the Rasul practiced it, according to these accounts...

Now this means either all the accounts are wrong somehow...and the right hand really does not mean what we think it does...or it is right, but there is some sort of catch involved that has not been emphasized enough, and has been covered up by "scholarly" work...

or maybe it really is okay to screw the nurse captured from the war against her wishes...
[/QUOTE]

that nurse joined the kuffar deliberately and thus she deserves to be taken captive. now it is up to the leader to free her, but it is also upto him to give her to one of the fighter as slave. and it is a proven sunnah, so there is nothing wrong with it and we should not be ashamed of it because we are "liberal" muslims who take kuffar as our friends and think that they can go to heaven if they are "good".

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *
you didnt answer my question.

[/QUOTE]
I did. And I did it very clearly. I am repeating it again, so that you can read it again, and may be it sinks in this time. I do not believe slavery has any place in modern world. Understand?

You can copy-paste all the religious scripture that your heart desires, and try to hide your fantasies behind sunnah and what not... it does not change anything, as far as slavery is concerned. If you want to condemn people for not wanting slavery back, by all means go ahead. Let Allah be our judge.

PCG... his original question is to ask muslim women what will be there reaction if their husbands have intercourse with slave-girls, when an Islamic state is established (in the future). Now go figure why he is asking about slavery, when it is abolished and abhored in all of civilized world at present times. I do not wish to further speculate on his motives.

well you wanna know what i’ll do to my husband if he takes a slave girl?

If he doesn’t send her back to her homeland in one way or the other WITHOUT laying a finger on her…

I will do one of these to him → :kaboom:

I kid you not.

what is civilized world may i ask? those same people who deny allah, his rasul, his book and the angels? they are the “civilized” or those who believe in allah, his rasuls and his books civilized? what is the truth of islam? what the “modern day” norms are or what was the practice of rasul :saw: and his companions? frankly the malice of people is coming out slowly but surely. when evidence is presented, they say that we will follow what we desire and leave the messenger and his companions. they say we will follow some parts of the book while rejecting others. who has the permission to decide what is civilized? allah and his rasul or these so called “humanists”? who has the right to implement the laws? allah and his rasul or these “humanists”? look in your heart beyond the fake fascade of “humanity” you will find the answer inshallah. islam is not what we desire or what the kuffar desire or waht are “Accepted” norms of the moder day. if that was the case then stoning married couple for adulty would not have a place in modern day civilized world. cutting the hand of the theif would be too harsh. western europe does not even have death peanlty for killers, so hudood would be thrown out. is that what you consider “civilized”? if you throw out legality of slaves today citing “modern” day norms, then may be tomorrow people would say throw out hudood, there is no need for it in “modern” day world. infact kuffar even now say that huddod is too harsh, so in our zeal to fit in we would throw it out? because hudood falls in same category as sabaya. it is a form of punishment. being slave is punishment for kuffar who fight against allah, while huddod are punishment for other crimes, so if you throw out slavery, throw out hudood. it is my last post regarding this subject because i think hujjah has been established with this matter by the words of ulama i qouted in previous posts, if you think sunnah has no place in todays world then i must admit that we are on different planets.
so after that to you your religion and to me mine.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *
so after that to you your religion and to me mine.
[/QUOTE]
If your religion is that you will get females POW's as slaves to have sex, then, by all means, to you yours. I'd rather have nothing to do with you or what you believe in vis a vis slavery.

Any other issue in Islam, feel free to join back with the mainstream muslims. :)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
or maybe it really is okay to screw the nurse captured from the war against her wishes...
[/QUOTE]

there r rules of who can be taken a slave and who not....

i dont have sources now and i aint digging them out for u, but i dont think an educated nurse cud be taken as a slave if u go by shariah....

hah - tell that to thand bhai.

In the interest of keep things fair, I'd like to know when I get my Iraqi slave girl? Should I email Rumsfeld or something?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

Why declare it to be wrong when the Prophet (saws) did not? Why declare it to be wrong when the Sahaba had slaves?

At most one can say that Islam discourages slavery, and very tightly regulates it. But certainly, slavery is not wrong in Islam.
[/QUOTE]

I guess the same can be said for child molestation, right?

You don’t get any. Thandy will not give you anything. Islamic law only gives benefit to muslims. Don’t you remember the debate we had on civil rights of minorities?

Just so, I don’t forget the link, here is the gem**.**](http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167303#post2853112)

You live in the East Bay right Faisal? I can head over to your place right now from Marin and convert/revert if you promise to find me a nice slave girl.

I don't live in East Bay. And you won't get a slave girl either. But you can head out of Marin any time you want. Its wet and dreary either way. :)

Does anyone care to field the question on child molestation? Your prophet never condemned that either as far as I know so will it too be re-instituted under an Islamic state?

Why is only this one occurence put in a "historical norm" context?

here is a qoute from a scholar.

I’m a boy of 26, and i have come to know a very nice girl, belonging to a very good family. I wish to marry her and to propose to her parents for this purpose. But the problem is that the girl is still a child, and only 13 years old, which makes her 13 years my junior in age.
I wish to ask if its morally acceptable for me to think about her, be attracted to her and to propose for her in marriage. And do u think our relationship would be legitimate and socially and religiously acceptable with this age difference.
Also, if per chance it is acceptable, it raises a question that islam advocates soliciting a girl’s opinion in marriage, but how can such a young girl make an intelligent decision for herself. In such case, what are the basis for islam’s allowing such a marriage to take place.

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

There is nothing wrong with your marrying this girl, even though there is this difference in age between you. What matters is that she should be religiously committed and of good character. These are what matters when it comes to marriage, and are the factors that lead to harmony and happiness in sha Allaah.

The validity of marriage to a minor girl is proven by the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]”

[al-Talaaq 65:4]

So the ‘iddah for those who do not menstruate because they are too young is three months, and ‘iddah has to do with divorce after getting married, which indicates that the girls in question has been married and divorced.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) when she was six years old, and he consummated the marriage with her when she was nine, and at that time he was over fifty.

Al-Bukhaari (3894) and Muslim (1422) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me when I was six years old and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine.

A girl who is thirteen years old may have reached the age of puberty, in which case her consent is essential according to the more correct of the two scholarly opinions, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A previously-married woman should not be married until she has been consulted, and a virgin should not be married until her permission has been sought.” They said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what is her permission?” He said: “If she remains silent.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5136; Muslim, 1419, from the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him). See also question no. 22760.

If she has not reached the age of puberty, then her father has the sole right to arrange her marriage and does not have to ask her permission.

Ibn Qudaamah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: With regard to a virgin who is still a minor, there is no difference of opinion concerning her (i.e., that her father may marry her off even if she objects). Ibn al-Mundhir said: Every scholar from whom we learned was agreed that it is permissible for a man to marry off his virgin daughter who is still a minor, if he marries her to someone who is compatible, and it is permissible for him to marry her off even if she objects and refuses.” Al-Mughni, 9/398

But it was narrated from Imam Ahmad that whoever reaches the age of nine years comes under the same ruling as a girl who has reached puberty, so her permission must be sought. But if the father opts to be on the safe side and ask her permission, that is better. Al-Mughni, 8/398-405.

And Allaah knows best.

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