Rubbing facts in the face of molvis! (part 2) The self-contradctary law!

Here is how different scholars defined a “muslim”, while being questioned by justice
muneer, in the 1953 case against ahmadis:

               ================== part 1, the definition ==========

               -) maulana abu-ul-hasnaat mohammad ahmed qadri:
               " should believe on 
               (1) oneness of god, 
               (2) mohammad's prophethood, 
               (3) accept mohammad as the last prophet, 
               (4)believes that koran was revealed from allah thru prophet mohammad, 
               (5) should accept the orders given by prophet mohammad, and 
               (6) believe in the doomsday."

               ( maulana sahab has not told us what verses of koran he used to make this definition.
               also note that he did not mention 
               (a) beleif in ALL divine books, 
               (b) beleif in ALL prophets, 
               (c) beleif in the angels.
               - jewels)


               -) maulana ahmed ali saheb, ( jamiat ulma-e-islam )

               "if someone 
               (1) believes in the koran
               (2) hadith of prophet mohammad
               then he is a muslim, even if he does not believe in anything else."

               ( maulana sahab, have just cleaned off ALL other aspects of islamic faith. -jewels)

               -) maulana ( so called )"abu-ul-ala", modoodi:

               "the one who believes in
               (1) oneness of allah,
               (2) believes in ALL prophets,
               (3) believes in ALL divine books,
               (4) believes in angels, and
               (5) believes in the doomsday,
               is a muslim."

               ( note that this definition does not hold ANY valid point to call ahmadis as nonmuslims.
               -jewels)

               question: " is this all enough for being called a muslim?"

               reply: "yes!"

               question: " if someone believes in all five of these points, does someone have a right to
               call him a non muslim? " 

               reply: "no! but anyone who does not accept these five values, is a non muslim"

               ( note that according to this statment of modoodi, the previous scholars i mentioned,
               become non muslims!!! -jewels)


               -) ghazi siraajuddin:

               " the one who says the kalima and follows prophet mohammad is a muslim!"

               despite repeatedly being questioned, he said that anyone who does not FOLLOW
               mohammad in ALL walks of life is a nonmuslim.

               -) mufti mohammad idrees ( jamia ashrafiya ):

               he, after a long speech said,
               " a muslim is the one who believes in all needs of the religion"

               when questioned about those needs of religion, he replied, " they are so many, that it is
               almost impossible for me to tell all of them.

               -) maulana ali kandhalwi:

               he said that someone who "acts upon the needs of religion in the light of the sayings of
               prophet mohammad " is a muslim.

               ( note that he talked not about BELIEVES but about ACTING UPON the believes.) 

               question: " what are those needs of religion?"

               answer: " the needs of religion are those needs which all muslims know, whether or not
               they are scholars!"

               ( as if this is all a JOKE! shame for the molvis! -jewels)

               question: " please count us all those needs of religion."

               answer: " i do not know! i am not capable of counting them all!"

               ( note what these molvis are saying. and keep in mind that they are the ones who are
               the CREAM of the anti-ahmadiyya agitation! - jewels)


               -) maulana mohammad ahsen islaahi:

               " there are two types of muslims
               1) true muslims
               2) political muslims

               political muslims should believe in:

               1) oneness of allah,
               2) the finality of prophethood
               3) all good and bad is from allah
               4) the "aakhirat"
               5) koran as the last book
               6) hajj
               7) zakaat
               8) namaaz
               9) the other laws of islamic society
               10) fasting

               ( maulana sahab has eaten up the belief in angels, or probabaly didnt feel it necessary!
               - jewels)

               question: " do we only have to BELIEVE in them?"

               answer " yes, mere BELEIF in them is enough for being a political muslim. those who act
               upon them are "true muslims".

               ======================= part 2, the law =================

             Note that all the above deifinitions provided to the court, make it clear that ahmedis ** can not **  be called kafirs. once this had taken place, it must be noted that after that

               1) there has been no new divine book
               2) there has been no change in the koran
               3) there has been no new hadith discovered

               but still, the final definition of a muslim made in 1974 was made of two parts:

               1) the muslim should believe in the kalima
               2) the muslim must not believe in any promised messiah ( i.e. mirza ghulam ahmad sahab
               of qadian)

               it is thus clear to any neutral reader about the whole conspiracy. this definition clearly
               tells us of the political game that was played by the molvis, in the name of religion! 


               ============================== part 3, self-contradiction ===========

               in this law, no ahmadi is allowed to say the kalima, because this will mean he is
               pretending to be a muslim!

               ( ina lillahe wa inna ilaihe rajeoon! -jewels)


               any ahmadi who says the kalima, (if not killed by the local molvi), will be punished for
               three years in jail, and a heavy fine. 


               the question is,

               HOW is saying the kalima, pretending to be a muslim?

               the translate a muslim as the one who
               1) says the kalima
               2) disbelieves in mirza ghulam ahmad.


               so in order to pretend to be a muslim, an ahmadi has to fulfill BOTH the above points! it
               is their own opinion that saying of kalima is NOT enough for being a muslim! a muslim
               must deny mirza ghulam ahmad too! so if an ahmadi says a kalima but DOES NOT deny
               mirza ghulam ahmad, how can they say he is pretending to be a muslim?

               thus making a law, that saying the kalima is similar to being a muslim, they themselves
               have made it clear, that KALIMA alone is the definition of a muslim! 

               so this law contradicts itself!

Dear Jewels,

I am a little disappointed. It is not nice to "expose" the idiocies of the dead. These people you list are long gone. No one really believes in what their interpretation was. Look at the Pakistani National Parliament. The parties that represent their views only have less than 3% of the seats. So you can't take their interpretations (of anything) as universally accepted views. Most Pakistanis don't prescribe to their views. It is not nice to make fun of those who nobody looks for direction!

I don't like it when you state things that are so obvious. One has to be an "idiot" to figure that out. Please show us some respect.

Stay well!

Dear Sir,
many of the above mentioned molvi sahabs are alive, and shamelessly stand by their hypocracy!

Although thy just have 3% of the seats, they did manage to get the parliament in making the self-contradictary law, which clearly violates basic human rights. how can you say the, that pakistanis dont prescribe to their views? Some of them are still the most important and authentic leaders of muslims.

And although some of them are dead, the law lives! and there is no one speaking against it!

salams n stuff,

Well i my self dont call no ahmedi a non-muslim let alone calling someone a kafir.

You gave some so called facts bout who is called a muslim and who is not.

I m not going to judge that here but just wana say this.. No matter how much ahmedis say and do they will always be called non-muslims in pakistan. few reasons being Politics, Mullah-izm and Money.
pakistan is built on these main pillars so they cant think in a different way.

If the mullahizm was so much devoted to peserv. of Islam then they would have given all Ismialis, Shia and others sects as non-muslims.

w-salams n stuff
Jai Peeri.

J.O.I. - AAP KI KAEE BATOON SAY HUMAIN ITTIFAAQ HAI... KAFI WAZAN HAI AAP KI POST MAIN.. MERA BHI YAHEE AQEEDA HAI KAY JO BHI MOO SAY KALMA KAHAY AUR AMLANN MUSALMAAN HO, USAY KAFIR KAHNAY KA KOI HAQQ NAHIN.. KYA KABHI KISSI NAY KISSI KAY DIL MAIN JHAAN KAY DEKHA HAI.. INTEHAEE NAMAQOOL LOOG HAI DUNYA WALAY BHI.... AGER AAP SACHAY DIL SAY ALLAH KI IBADAT KERTAY HAIN AUR RASOOL-E PAK(SWA) PAY DAROOD BHAIJTAY HAIN TO MERAY NAZDEEQ AAP BHI KAFIR NAHIN... ACHA BUS ZEYADA KHILKHILANAY KI KOSHISH NA KERAIN, MAIN TO JEE WAISAY HE KAH RAHI THEE... (PS: HOSAKAY TO APNAY AQEEDAY KO ELABORATE KERAIN, I WANT TO KNOW WHO ARE AHMADIS AND WHAT ARE THEIR BASIC BELIEFS AND WHY THEY ARE CALLED KAFIR BY THE GENERAL MUSLIMS, WHY SHIAS AND ZIKRIS AND ISMAILS AND ETC ETC ARE NOT DECLARED KAFIR, DESPITE THEY OPENLY COMMITS SHIRKS).. MAAF KEJIAYGA MERI DEENEYAAT BAHUT KAMZOOR HAI.... MAIN YAHAN ZEYADA NAHIN AATEE.. AGER HOSAKAY TO EMAIL KERDAIN.. BUT DONT YOU EVER SEND ANYTHING NASTY.. OTHERWIZEEEEE %$^*&^$%#$.. SAMJHAY?//
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CHANDA

thanks for your reply chanda. You are one of the most sensible persons this forum has ever expreienced ( atleast in my opinion ). I would certainly like to see a lot more from you in the forum than i currently do.

I would also appreciate your comments in my other thread about the truth of the quotes.

salams n stuff,

well Miss Chanda .. hasool-e-ilm is a good thing and no matter how old u get and how knowledgeble u get u will always learn more n more all ya life.
My Peer sahib said. Askin more n more question is as good as Milk :)

Well allama iqbal in Shikwa/Jawab-e-Shika said something like...(sorry i m kamzoor in shair-o-shairi' tum toe syed bhi ho mirza bhi ho .... bhi hoe Phaley yeah batlao k tum musalman bhi ho?'

w-salams n stuff,
Jai Peeri

PEERSIMMS6 ...adab..these are the few lines from jawab-e- skikwa...enjoy

**yon to saiyad bhee to, mirza bhee ho, afghan bhee ho
tum sabhee kuch ho, batao to musalman bhee ho

                                        dumey taqareer thee muslim kee sadaqat bebak

adal ooska tha qavee, los-o-maraat sey pak

                                          shjar-o-fitratey muslim tha haya sey namnak

tha shujaat main voh aek hastee-e-faukool idrak**

dil..dilseeee