RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

like i said i dont trumpet islam. but if your trying to imply that no hindu would willingly want to convert is a joke of a statement. you deserve ridicule for such a blatantly ignorant and biased view.

Facts are based on evidence, which you havent provided. Excuse me if I dont accept your word.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Just as Indians allege Pakistanis of distorting history it's clear that the same is rampant on the other side as well to provide a fake sense of identity.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

These RSS propagandist need a thappaR from Romila Thapar :)

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Mr.Med11 - it is true that the British used as one of their strategies, the Hindu-Muslim divide which they took care to foster some. That however does not absolve or obsolete the fact of forced conversions - I as many in India do not need a 'project account' to read for this because we grew up looking at these ruins; with age and money when travel became possible, we visited across the region and country. The evidence first hand is quite damning. But India survives because neither the common Hindu nor the common Muslim has the energy and need to rake up this past which they know will only lead to cycle of bloodshed. Both have sufficient things to be ashamed of and be proud of.

However in the e-world of copy-paste artists the kind of half-baked 'evidence' such as what you present is common. May you one day get the urge to seek truth.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Your acceptance doesn't matter. But expressed ignorance does particularly when you exhibit it; hence the issue. If most physical evidence of forced conversions have been erased in Pakistan, perhaps you should take a tour of India.
@Ali_Syed - so you don't think Muslims of India came from Hindu ancestors, when you use the term 'fake identity'?

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Mostly converted due to the caste system prevalent there, not by force per se.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

"Half-baked" is when you go traveling and see a ruin, and then automatically assume a Muslim must have torn down a temple that once stood there, and all the surrounding Hindu habitations were forced to convert.

If your so well traveled, then come to Pakistan, where only a mile from my village there are ruins of old temples at Katas raj, a holy site for Hindus who still visit every year. Now, those temples werent made ruins by Muslims. They are ruins because they are over a thousand years old.

You should rake up your past, because when you allow people (excuse me, like YOU), to make such false statements based on ZERO evidence other then to say "I travel." then you are allowing hate mongers to spread disharmony and discontent. Its people like you who peddle false narratives that helped create Pakistan. That Muslims have always been the enemy of Hindus is only reinforced by this notion that Muslims just blindly ran around knocking down Hindu temples.

LOL... Copy and paste. If I copy and paste randomly from any source, that should raise eyebrows.
But I copy and paste from an interview by an ACTUAL historian of repute. Would you prefer i type in manually entire excerpts from his book since copy and paste are no longer acceptable?

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Im sure there were people who were compelled to covert for one reason or another, but there were also people who choose to convert. Really it wasnt so simple as if they suddenly turned on a switch and were no longer Hindu. Here is what Richard Eaton has to say on the subject:

"Which is why you also don’t like the use of the word ‘conversions’ for this period? You say conversions suggest a pancake-like flip, which is not how Islam spread. What do you mean by that?"
"I hate the use of the word ‘conversions’. When I was studying the growth of Islam in Punjab, I came across a fascinating text on the Sial community. It traces their history from the 14th to the 19th century. If you look at the names of these people, you will find that the percentage of Arabic names increased gradually between the 14th and 19th centuries. In the early 14th century, they had no Arabic names. By the late 14th century, 5 percent had Arabic names. It’s not until the late 19th century that 100 percent had Arabic names. So, the identification with Islam is a gradual process because the name you give your child reflects your ethos and the cultural context in which you live. The same holds true when you look at the name assigned to god. In the 16th century, the words Muslims in Bengal used for god were Prabhu or Niranjan etc — Sanskrit or Bengali words. It’s not until the 19th century that the word Allah is used. In both Punjab and Bengal, the process of Islamisation is a gradual one. That’s why the word ‘conversion’ is misleading — it connotes a sudden and complete change. All your previous identities are thrown out. That’s not how it happens. When you talk about an entire society, you are talking about a very gradual, glacial experience. "
‘It’s a myth that Muslim rulers destroyed thousands of temples’ | Tehelka.com](http://www.tehelka.com/its-a-myth-that-muslim-rulers-destroyed-thousands-of-temples/)

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Again… Does every ruined temple in India have a tag attached detailing exactly how or why it was knocked down? As far as I know, you certainly weren’t around to see its destruction.

You dont have to agree wth me, you dont have to counter my assertions. Its the assertions made by an actual historian that you have to contend with. And I guarantee you he has seen far more of these ruins then you have. The burden of proof is on you, I already said my piece.

I suggest you find some evidence quickly to salvage some of your credibility.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

How dare you quote an actual historian? You, sir, have no credibility.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

You would think that in the age of Google and the sheer overwhelming access to knowledge, that people would do some due diligence.

If there is one thing i know, there is no black an white. And so whenever someone makes a blanket statement like "Muslims destroyed thousands of Hindu temples" there is certainly something disingenuous there.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Malabar Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There was a comment earlier about forced conversion to Islam in Kerala. The above link has some information. The moppillas (spelling?) staged a rebellion against the British circa 1927. Shamefully the Hindus opposed this and worked on the side of the British. The British spread the propaganda that the Muslims were religious extremists - how convenient. Thus the Hindus joined forces with the British. Divide and rule, anybody?

Yes. As part of this rebellion the Muslims did attack Nairs and Namboodiris. And did some forced conversions. The Congress at that time did not consider this as part of the national freedom movement.

Now years later the Kerala government has honored these Muslims as Freedom Fighters.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Islamic Invasion of Kerala - Metapedia

This link says there were forced conversions. I don’t know ow much abt this topic. As Med stated there is no black or white.

To say no one willingly converted is nonsense. Why wouldn’t a low caste Hindu convert to Islam willlingly. What exactly was he giving up. Other than bigotry.

Why are Hindus bothering about low.caste Hindus now. Is it a numbers game for them.

If one were to be objective Islam makes more sense. For it doesn’t differentiate between castes.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

It is also widely known the Sufi movement converted people willingly.

The apologists for RSS are also the ones active in the Jammu and Kashmir thread. And preaching to Pakistanis after the Peshawar tragedy.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

This video from the Crash Course World Hisotry series (I love these.. Do check them out) did a video on the Mughals, with particular attention paid to the contrast between Akbar and Aurangzeb. It highlights this point, that history is never one sided and there are always alternative interpretations. Enjoy!

“Traditionally, Akbar I is considered the emperor that made the Mughal Empire great, and Aurangzeb gets the blame for running the whole thing into the ground and setting it up for decline. Is that really how it was, though? It turns out, it’s complicated.”

“We often use history to define ourselves today, and one of the most common ways to do that is to make negative claims about the people who we say we are not. And so when we look at historical figures, we need to be conscience of the fact that WE are looking at them.”

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

One last article on the issue of temple destruction. This article deals with Aurangzeb and makes the point that while destruction of temples did take place, its wasnt religious zealotry but rather politics that were to blame, as often when local Hindus rebelled, a local temple was the root of it.
Aurangzeb and Islamic Rule in India | Lost Islamic History

While the accomplishments and religious-mindedness of Aurangzeb’s reign is indisputable there are those historians and academics who insist that the lasting legacy of Aurangzeb is intolerance and oppression. He is commonly cited as a temple-destroyer and someone who attempted to eliminate non-Muslims in his empire. For the truth, some more context is necessary.
With regards to his attitudes towards Hindus and Sikhs in general, he was clearly not prejudiced nor discriminatory. Dozens of Hindus worked in his royal court as officials and advisers. More non-Muslims in fact were part of his court than the court of Akbar, who is commonly cited as a the most religiously tolerant Mughal emperor. With Hindus and Sikhs occupying positions in his government and military, clearly Aurangzeb was not simply a religious bigot that refused to acknowledge the contributions of his non-Muslim subjects.
The second issue that comes up in analysis’ of Aurangzeb’s rule is instances of him destroying Hindu and Sikh temples and refusing to allow new ones to be built. That he ordered such actions is a historical fact that cannot be disputed.
http://lostislamichistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/764px-Asif_tomb-300x235.jpgAurangzeb’s court included dozens of non-Muslim officials

Preservation of temples with Islamic religious justification is a long-running tradition in India. The first Muslim army to come to India in 711 under Muhammad bin Qasim promised religious freedom and security of temples to Hindus and Buddhists. The same policy had been followed for hundreds of years before the Mughals. However, Aurangzeb did not disregard the Islamic laws regarding protection of religious minorities. Aurangzeb himself even noted that Islamically, temple desecration was not permitted when in 1659 he wrote, “According to the Shariah [Islamic law], and the exalted creed, it has been established that ancient temples should not be torn down.”[SUP] 1 [/SUP]
So if Aurangzeb did not demolish temples for religious reasons, why did he do it? The answer lies in the political nature of temples in the 1600s.
Hindu and Sikh temples (unlike Muslim mosques) were not just places of worship. They also had political significance. Temples acted as political offices and state property, and the priests that were in charge of them were in the employ of the government. When seeking to get the support of Hindus in a particular area, Mughal emperors (and even Hindu kings in non-Mughal areas) would rely on the priests to rally the local population through the temple. As such, a temple was more than just a religious building, it was also a potentially powerful political tool.
With this understanding of temples and their significance, we can move on to understand Aurangzeb’s destruction of certain temples. No historical records show that he had an indiscriminate policy of temple destruction across India. The temples he chose to destroy were carefully selected and a small fraction of the total Hindu houses of worship in India. This is because when Aurangzeb chose a temple for destruction, it was a politically motivated act, not a religious one.
Seeing the opulence and subsequent financial strain of the Mughals during the reign of Shah Jahan, numerous local governors and priests decided to rebel against Mughal authority during the reign of Aurangzeb. When a rebellion broke out in one part of the empire, the local temple was the natural political entity that rebels could rally against. So long as the rebel leaders and their client temples existed, the threat to the Mughal government existed.
http://lostislamichistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Featured-Page-Image1-300x211.pngAurangzeb Reading Quran

It thus became a policy when fighting rebellions against central authority, that the temple that spawned that rebellion also be destroyed. An example of this was a 1669 rebellion in Banaras led by a political rival, Shivaji, who used the local temple to rally support to his cause. After capturing Shivaji, Aurangzeb destroyed a temple in Banaras that was used as a political recruiting ground against his reign. Another example occurred in 1670 in Mathura when Jats rebelled and killed a local Muslim leader. Again, to end the rebellion Aurangzeb had to destroy the temple that had supported it.
Overall, the policy of desecrating temples was used as a political punishment for disloyal Hindu officials, not as a sign of religious intolerance as some may argue. A further argument that the lack of mosque desecration means he was religiously bigoted also holds no ground, as mosques did not double as political institutions as temples did. While the policy of obliterating a political opponent’s base of operations is one that may have its detractors, the arguments that Aurangzeb’s actions were religiously motivated are clearly baseless. Instead, Aurangzeb was a religiously-minded leader who strove hard to ensure an Islamic character permeated through all his actions as leader. This did not however mean religious intolerance as he followed guidelines for protection of non-Muslims that is mandated by Islamic law.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Muslim conquests on the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The gentleman stated wiki as a source. So here is link. That essentially validates Meds position on conversion.

Yes. Temples were destroyed per this link. Not sure about one in 5 town stat pulled out of …

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

Very informative.. Thank you.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

I am clear on how it happened, Sufism versus Indian caste system. The rule of Muslims was wide spread but Islam spread more in those areas where we can find trace of Sufis.

Re: RSS on their Conversion Assignment!

well well well! look at the Med11Southie club at hard work here! Can't go shopping for a few hours without this I like you like society rearing up.

So Southie looked up a link in wiki - suggest you read it.
"An estimate of the number of people killed remains unknown. Based on the Muslim chronicles and demographic calculations, an estimate was done by K.S. Lal in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India, who claimed that between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. Although this estimate was disputed by Simon Digby in (School of Oriental and African Studies), Digby suggested that estimate lacks accurate data in pre-census times. In particular the records kept by al-Utbi, Mahmud al-Ghazni's secretary, in the Tarikh-i-Yamini document several episodes of bloody military campaigns.[4] Hindus who converted to Islam however were not completely immune to persecution due to the caste system among Muslims in India established by Ziauddin al-Barani in the Fatawa-i Jahandari,[5] where they were regarded as an "Ajlaf" caste and subjected to discrimination by the "Ashraf" castes.[6]"

Now if you want bodycam evidence suggest you wait till time machine is invented.

BTW even a dissenting historian Digby objects to the number because it was pre-modern census, and not to the fact of how Islam was spread. If you take out the conversions by pressure tactics, economic discrimination taxes and outright violence, what's left would be miniscule. Why do I say that? Look at the two religions that came without violence - zoroastrians or jewish populations - those found a home by non-violent reasons and that'd have been the scale