I was watching some videos of the beyond belief conference from 2006 and came across the following speech by Neil deGrass Tyson:
The whole speech is very interesting along with some others from the conference.
Tyson makes a very interesting remark about the era of Muslim achievements in science and the subsequent decline. He says that it was the work of Imam Ghazali that first cast doubt on the suitability of the study of mathematics. Apparently, he called it the work of the devil. This combined with other philosophical influences about the nature of Islam and it’s compatibility with science and mathematics caused the decline that persists to this day. The relavent part starts at 22:50 in the video but if you’re in a hurry, listen to 26-30 minutes.
I had not heard of this before and needless to say I was intrigued. Does anyone know anything about this? I would really like to read more about this if anyone knows an interesting book. Additionally, what do you think of his premise?
Mods: even though this touches on religion, please leave it here so that we could have more diverse opinions.
Blaming everything on one person sounds ridiculous and almost illogical.
It was actually the Nizamiyah education system that institutionalised religious studies and as a result the religious tolerance declined and so did the interest in scientific knowledge. Imam Ghazali taught in Nizamiyah college but later on left it.
Also, even centuries after this happened, Baghdad remained the centre of science and philosophy until Mongols destroyed it.
I personally dont think there has been any decline in muslim contribution to science. Initially when the muslims were dominant powers of the world they had the resources to fund research and educate, author books and impart education.
If we look at history, Christianity is older religion than Islam, but since during the initial period, up until late middle ages Church played a pivotal role in politics. They persecuted scientists who formed theories the Church deemed heretical and forbade people from reading any books on those subjects. People like Galileo, Coppernicus, and Giordano Bruno are some examples of Church's brutality.
Later on when Church lost the power a true boom in scientific fields just before Renaissance is witnessed throughout the world. People were given freedom of expression. All the unpublished books, papers, and theories were made public, and it was the perfect time since print publishing was introduced the very first time. On one hand we have people who realized the power of press and were busy spreading ideas and scientific knowledge, while on the other hand we have muslims boycotting this vital invention. Since then Muslims have lost the power as a global force and thereafter have been in a steady decline ever since.
Science and islam dont have to be mutually exclusive. They compliment each other. Astronomy, algebra and medicine in medieval times was all attributed to muslim scientists from al razi to al khwarizmi. During islam peak years (600-750) Baghdad was one of the great intellectual capitals of the world. Islam is at its lowest point in its existence which is sad to see considering how much it had contributed to the enlightenment process
Just open a thread in life 1 asking whether girls should prioritize education and college and even masters degrees before marriage and watch everyone's brains explode.
You don't educate your women, your community will never be enlightened.
Just open a thread in life 1 asking whether girls should prioritize education and college and even masters degrees before marriage and watch everyone's brains explode.
You don't educate your women, your community will never be enlightened.
There is no and there should be no connection between marriage and education.
Oldest brother's wife, started her left over education after she started sending her 2 kids to school.
Now when kids are grade 10 and ahead, she had authored couple of books in her field.
Good example of no connection between education and marriage.
Just open a thread in life 1 asking whether girls should prioritize education and college and even masters degrees before marriage and watch everyone's brains explode.
You don't educate your women, your community will never be enlightened.
Plenty of MUSLIM girls get an education even AFTER getting married, plz come out of ur bubble and see where the world is. :)
There is no and there should be no connection between marriage and education.
Oldest brother's wife, started her left over education after she started sending her 2 kids to school.
Now when kids are grade 10 and ahead, she had authored couple of books in her field.
Good example of no connection between education and marriage.
Only a superficial reading of Al-Ghazali could conclude that he was against study of science and mathematics. In fact, he specifically warned against rejection of science and mathematics.
What he was against was using science and mathematics to construct a philosophy and consider it an alternative to religion.
A man who lived 1000 years ago, and we are still not able to leave his being alone. Al-Ghazali should not be adhered to in any case, the world is far more developed, and the average man far more enlightened than in his time. Or are we going to deny simple logical facts?
Dude you cant just leave the historical progress alone, to understand today one must look at past, to this date scientists are trying to look at fossils and discovering gravity waves to find the absolute beginning of planet Earth. Historians study Democritus, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle to this day. The idea is not to see the conclusions they got to, but the thought process, the questions they posed to find answers of everyday problems. Without history mankind is lost.
This is from Wikipedia page of Al-Ghazali
Al-Ghazali has sometimes been referred to by historians as the single most influential Muslim after the Islamic prophet Muhammad.[SUP][/SUP] Within Islam he is considered to be a Mujaddid or renewer of the faith, who, according to tradition, appears once every century to restore the faith of the community
Imam Ghazali is the most respected of muslim philosophers, and being a muslim at heart he could not go along with Plato’s ideas of forms(neoplatonism), Aristotle’s demeaning view of role of women in society and materialistic origin of world. That’s why he warned about blindly reading and following western philosophy. During the 11th century world scholars were mystified by works of the Greek philosophers, philosophy was thought to be a better science then mathematics and other natural sciences, and by that time muslims had seen the best of their times in medicine, chemistry and mathematics and therefore naturally felt left behind those advancing in Philosophy.
*There is no and there should be no connection between marriage and education. *
Oldest brother's wife, started her left over education after she started sending her 2 kids to school.
If this was true we wouldn't see so many girls dropping out after marriage.. The reality is that many (if not most) will be encouraged to get pregnant instead..
Yes, there will always be exceptions and whilst it is possible it's hardly the norm.. Some girls are able to go back to studying or working later but you only have to look around you to see that most don't..
If this was true we wouldn't see so many girls dropping out after marriage.. The reality is that many (if not most) will be encouraged to get pregnant instead..
Yes, there will always be exceptions and whilst it is possible it's hardly the norm.. Some girls are able to go back to studying or working later but you only have to look around you to see that most don't..
This is not a thread for women rights, stop making everything about girl problems..... :/
Dude you cant just leave the historical progress alone, to understand today one must look at past, to this date scientists are trying to look at fossils and discovering gravity waves to find the absolute beginning of planet Earth. Historians study Democritus, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle to this day. The idea is not to see the conclusions they got to, but the thought process, the questions they posed to find answers of everyday problems. Without history mankind is lost.
The problem is that we are stuck at Al-Ghazali and other muslims from days of yore, we don't just study them, we seem to adhere to each and every conclusion they made. For the past 5-600 years, muslims haven't achieved much in the field of science and inventions. Instead of continuously talk about our past, why not look at the present, and learn from those who are making scientific discoveries, those who are inventing for the benefit of whole of mankind? You know, the non-muslims!
Religion and science should not be mixed. Religion should be a personal and private matter, and a matter of spirituality. There is a reason why the muslim nations and muslims haven't achieved anything for the past few centuries. We just aren't able to keep religion a matter of spirituality, we tend to mix it into every part of our being. And that has basically lead us nowhere for many centuries, but yet we keep on doing so.
Hmmm, now that makes sense but I would still argue that we had resources and vision to fund and conduct research before, now we don't. And unless we invest in R&D we will keep running in circles.
Even in a poor family with little resources, if parents are smart and understand the need and utility for books and education, you'll see scientists and other professionals being produced from such famillies.
Our mothers don't get the importance, because they were either not educated, or if they were even in resourceful families, they were stressed to pick marriage/babies over their careers and education. Simple. A woman has an expiration date even in Pakistan's educated families, so even those women are not contributing in any way to academics or education. They get a degree and sit at home.
Their kids see that, and then they wont feel bothered to excel either beyond MBBS = mian biwi bachay sameth.
