what really army or forces of pakistan could do to put some colorful life in dying pakistan to work hard atleast they could clean rivers and could be used for transportation from north to south and also save from floods
Exactly, since there is no water left in Ravi, Satluj, and now Chanab, they can cleanup the mess and divide the "real state" among themselves, right...
Re: Role Of Army
army is shame for pakistan like yahya khan went shah irans cermony and got drunk and pissed in that function
army is shame for pakistan like yahya khan went shah irans cermony and got drunk and pissed in that function
**I **hope you don't include brave soldiers who are always ready to lay their lives for the integrity of Pakistan.
ironically this Yahya Khan was buried with full protocol of 21 gun salute of honor as his eulogy.
if he had to pee he had to pee
Where there is a pee there is a pot, and at that time, it was what?
Re: Role Of Army
^One cold night a famous film actress named "Tarana" approached the security of President House, the Guard asked who are you, and why are you here. She said I am actress "Taran" and President has asked for me, later in the morning on her way back same guard salute her, she said why saluting now; he said
"At night you were mere Tarana, now you are Qoumi Tarana"
Guess who was the president, yes brave Yahya Khan
if he had to pee he had to pee
in front of everyone
God Bless you BurqaPosh, all I can do is to pray for you.
Thank you and may God bless you too.
.....Army has its political and battle ground share in the fall of Dhaka, unfortunately this share is humongous as compared to any other party involved,
Mr. Phant, Moderator means "nonpartisan presiding officer of a town meeting".
However your one-sided lynching of Pak army hardly suits a moderator.
We the Pakistanis have had enough blamegame among ourselves for the sad events of 1971. Now it is time to shed some light on the other parties too.
Sh. Mujib did not believe in democracy. Just read 6 points to see how much poison his party had put in the wells of Pakistan.
Yahya may be a drunkard soul, but his generals had full knowledge of Indian intentions. Don't take my words, just read or listen to none other than Mankeshaw. One of his generals is on record that the Indian army was preparing for E. Pakistan attack in March 1971. India and Sh. Mujib were working hand in hand from day one.
It is a pity that so many Pakistani intellectuals do a lazy @rse job in looking in the history and yet they are so quick in self-flagellation.
Many people think that PPP do not achieve any thing when they are in Government. Some is the thinking for the persent goverment of of PPP. But let me say PPP have achieve lot even in last one year and that is Jamait Islami is so mad. This battle of philosophy on one side their are political party who use name of Islam to rule pakistan like JI and they have been doing this for last sixty years. And than PPP comes and destroy their work.
People from Lahore to Rawalpindi do see any change that is because they are living in Army belt. But if you go to Baluchistan, Sindhi and pakthoonkawa you would see and feel the differences. Sudent Union, PIA Union, Labour Union where allowed to operate agains in Pakistan which is bedrock for grooming new politician. Rember we all complain that we do not see new politician in Pakistan this the reason and when Army take over the first thing they do is to close all unions.
Many presioner of concessuse has been released, Media is free and people like Kashif Abbase do have talkshow although we all know who is the owenr of ARy World. and who is the father of Kashif.
Many ordinary people from Sindh, Baluchistan, and lower Punjab can now enter Islamabad without begind stop in Rawalpindi. One of the reason people love Bhutto family and now Zardari is that they all ordinary PPP worker in their home and listen to them. Even Qazi Shaib or NS or IK do not do that.
Re: Role Of Army
Haven't read anything in this thread. But by reading the title, something came to mind.
The military should educate its jawans, and then release them back to society. This way they can contribute to actual society building then sitting idly in chownies. They can be "reserves" and can be called up in case of emergencies like floods and what not.
Kind of like the national guard, I'd say.
The first thing that Pakistan Army should do is to become national Army. It is suprising that Pakistan Army has not be able to produce single General who is Sindhi, Baluchi, Aga Khani, Hindu, Bengali.
Re: Role Of Army
How much true ? Quite true but look . have you ever seen a perfact business man from Punjab? Before 1947 The British Army was having among them 4o % Punjabies Pashtones and adjusant areas while the population of these areas was 15 % only of the whole India.The Pakistan Army is continuation of the British Army and our Mama Chacha system is so powerfull that it allows no change.If they could ever change their GHQ out of Punjab they can make it a national army.
How much true ? Quite true but look . have you ever seen a perfact business man from Punjab? Before 1947 The British Army was having among them 4o % Punjabies Pashtones and adjusant areas while the population of these areas was 15 % only of the whole India.The Pakistan Army is continuation of the British Army and our Mama Chacha system is so powerfull that it allows no change.If they could ever change their GHQ out of Punjab they can make it a national army.
I am very sorry to see it.ashamed to feel it but every body must see an artical with *** means an advertisement on front page of daily 'Jang' and with a photograph at back page of daily The News this sunday about inaugration of a road called Express way from so called DHA Velly.Please must see and write what do you feel and must look the photo and then deciede what is the future?
The first thing that Pakistan Army should do is to become national Army. It is suprising that Pakistan Army has not be able to produce single General who is Sindhi, Baluchi, Aga Khani, Hindu, Bengali.
Being a modern soldier is "profession", and that means you have to qualify for the job. It doesn't matter if you are Bengali, or Aga Khani or a Balochi.
If you start out whining about minorities' share then even if some minority members get in the army, they will remain minority. So the whining will never stop.
Re: Role Of Army
hi everyone here i utterly dant know dat d people with a little knowledge about pakistan army should either comment or not but i want 2 pointout here one thing dat when it cums 2 give sacrificesor we r in a very tough circumstances we always look upon our army AYIEN AUR MADAD KAREIN HMARI i didnt mean dat they shouldnt do it,every countrys army is supposed 2 do it but when it cums 2 acknowledgement v r not at all willing 2 tke a step towards it n praise their good deeds?wat do u people think?
I am very sorry to see it.ashamed to feel it but every body must see an artical with *** means an advertisement on front page of daily 'Jang' and with a photograph at back page of daily The News this sunday about inaugration of a road called Express way from so called DHA Velly.Please must see and write what do you feel and must look the photo and then deciede what is the future?
It would have been nice had you scanned the photo and posted it here, I don't have access to the paper you have mentioned.
How much true ? Quite true but look . have you ever seen a perfact business man from Punjab? Before 1947 The British Army was having among them 4o % Punjabies Pashtones and adjusant areas while the population of these areas was 15 % only of the whole India.The Pakistan Army is continuation of the British Army and our Mama Chacha system is so powerfull that it allows no change.If they could ever change their GHQ out of Punjab they can make it a national army.
Internally Pakistan Army is impressively cohesive, even if there are concerns about the disparity of representation from different areas of Pakistan, these have never been surfaced out by the building blocks of this institution, each individual works strictly in accordance with the training and rules of Army Manual. .
However since this institution is also the biggest employer of the state of Pakistan, after state itself and is considered highly privileged, the disparities are not only publicly voiced but should also be taken care of.
Being a modern soldier is "profession", and that means you have to qualify for the job. It doesn't matter if you are Bengali, or Aga Khani or a Balochi.
If you start out whining about minorities' share then even if some minority members get in the army, they will remain minority. So the whining will never stop.
True, what if you are qualified and still not considered for the job because of unspoken or undocumented prejudice, would it still be called whining on the part of one who has been rejected, or on the part of a large ethnic group that share the sentiment generally?
True, what if you are qualified and still not considered for the job because of unspoken or undocumented prejudice, would it still be called whining on the part of one who has been rejected, or on the part of a large ethnic group that share the sentiment generally?
Sure we can play hypothetical scenarios all day long, and based on supposed issues, we can certainly beat the crap out Pak army (at least virtually :) ).
First the generalalities. If you ask that army as a national institution should be fully representative of Pakistan's ethnicities? You bet your bottom dollar, that the answer is yes.
The devil is always in the details. Unless you look at the details, you will not figure out the true nature of anything, let alone a complex and highly specialized institution like a modern army.
Army should never be subjected to purely ethnic analysis. The reason is simple. All over the world, only a specific set of regions provide men who are ready to face the ultimate danger. This aspect is different from many large institutions.
For example it will be easy (and it has been done in the past) to fill the whole Railway system with Urdu speaking group, or hire only Pashtuns to work in the ministry of water. The reason is simple. The jobs in Railway on ministry of water are mostly "safe" jobs. The hazards you face while working in Railway on some ministry are pretty much comparable to many other aspects of our society but it is not so in case of army or other law enforcement agencies.
Even in Punjab, only certain regions qualify and even "want" to join the army. Why do you think a Punjabi chap from a family of doctors settled in Lahore would even consider joining army? When he can use his education and family background to land a cushy urban job in a big hospital? Or do you think he will forego all that and apply for posting on Siachin?
Family traditions do matter as well. How many memans would leave their family business in Karachi and go join the army for low paygrades and tough life? How many times a Sindhi rural family sits around the herth and talk and dream about sending their young ones to serve in the army.
So far I have shown you the motivation for an individual to join the army.
The other aspects is to see what kind of aptitude is the army looking for? They do not select a Punjabi or a Pashtun just because of his ethnicity. This is the same for an IT firm too. Will they hire someone just because the guy is a Balochi? Heck no. They will first check if the guy has an aptitude (and qualifications) to work or get trained for the job.
How many large insurance companies in Karachi are dying to get young chaps from interior Sindh or Balochistan or Wazirastan? Are they discriminating on the basis of ethnicity? May be. But if you are manager in a big (and successful) insurance company, you are primarily concerned with finding the right person.
Coming back to the army, just look at the map and see the regions of Punjab and Frontier. There are specific districts that are known to supply infantry, armored core, and engineers.
Modern armies are complex and highly specialized and that's why they rely on:
roughly in the same order. So let's quit messing up with our institutions and start focusing on excellence.
Sure we can play hypothetical scenarios all day long, and based on supposed issues, we can certainly beat the crap out Pak army (at least virtually :) ).
First the generalalities. If you ask that army as a national institution should be fully representative of Pakistan's ethnicities? You bet your bottom dollar, that the answer is yes.
The devil is always in the details. Unless you look at the details, you will not figure out the true nature of anything, let alone a complex and highly specialized institution like a modern army.
Army should never be subjected to purely ethnic analysis. The reason is simple. All over the world, only a specific set of regions provide men who are ready to face the ultimate danger. This aspect is different from many large institutions.
For example it will be easy (and it has been done in the past) to fill the whole Railway system with Urdu speaking group, or hire only Pashtuns to work in the ministry of water. The reason is simple. The jobs in Railway on ministry of water are mostly "safe" jobs. The hazards you face while working in Railway on some ministry are pretty much comparable to many other aspects of our society but it is not so in case of army or other law enforcement agencies.
Even in Punjab, only certain regions qualify and even "want" to join the army. Why do you think a Punjabi chap from a family of doctors settled in Lahore would even consider joining army? When he can use his education and family background to land a cushy urban job in a big hospital? Or do you think he will forego all that and apply for posting on Siachin?
Family traditions do matter as well. How many memans would leave their family business in Karachi and go join the army for low paygrades and tough life? How many times a Sindhi rural family sits around the herth and talk and dream about sending their young ones to serve in the army.
So far I have shown you the motivation for an individual to join the army.
The other aspects is to see what kind of aptitude is the army looking for? They do not select a Punjabi or a Pashtun just because of his ethnicity. This is the same for an IT firm too. Will they hire someone just because the guy is a Balochi? Heck no. They will first check if the guy has an aptitude (and qualifications) to work or get trained for the job.
How many large insurance companies in Karachi are dying to get young chaps from interior Sindh or Balochistan or Wazirastan? Are they discriminating on the basis of ethnicity? May be. But if you are manager in a big (and successful) insurance company, you are primarily concerned with finding the right person.
Coming back to the army, just look at the map and see the regions of Punjab and Frontier. There are specific districts that are known to supply infantry, armored core, and engineers.
Modern armies are complex and highly specialized and that's why they rely on:
roughly in the same order. So let's quit messing up with our institutions and start focusing on excellence.
This hypothetical scenario is as real as the blood supply to your brain, if it doesn’t echo into your ear drum, you should invest some time into soul search rather than keep beating the drum of obsessive compulsive proclivity. Had all the ethnic group been given equal representation in Pakistn Army, the operation in East Pakistan might have not been perceived as carnage of West Pakistan Army against Bengali people, if Bengali soldiers were mostly involved in the operation it might have been perceived as Army fighting against separatist Mukti Bahni and that would have improved the chances of saving geographical integrity of Pakistan a lot. But we did not learn our lessons, even today an operation in Baluchistan is considered as Punjabi Army operation against Baluch people, against Pashtoon and against Sindhi people.
Indeed the devil is in the details, yet surprisingly you have always shown an ingrained propensity to shy away from the devil when it does not conform to your point of view. In a country like Pakistan where average income stays around one dollar a day and unemployment lurks around 30%, Army is seen as an institution that should serve as an equal opportunity employer. The specificity of certain areas providing most of the men has more to do with opportunities, culture and traditions of that area rather than the myth of audacity to stand against “ultimate danger”. I hope you don not question in intrepidity of Baluch, Pashtton and Sindhi people, if given a chance they would prove that they can defend their homeland as much as a person from an area perceived to have an aptitude for the Army.
Equal representation in Army is important because of two major reasons;
1) Army has ruled this country for more than half the time since its creation, this culture of Army rule makes this institution million times more ostentatious than a cadaverous railway. Serving in army is generally perceived as an honor and privilege and a privilege if not shared among all the building blocks of the society is bound to either bring prejudice in favor or against the very base of the institution that reflects it.
2) Pakistan Army, unfortunately, has been involved in operations against its own people more than it had been involved against a perceived external threat, in this back drop equal representation should serve much better for the reputation of the Army itself and for the better results.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in introducing reforms in recruitment practices within Army, if you pay any attention to the historical background of the areas known for their aptitude for army, you will be surprised to see that these areas were picked up by British colonial ruler rather than by Pakistan Army, and that too not because these people were known for their audacity but because these areas were not rebellious to British Authority, and were largely ruled by hand picked Feudal lords. These hand picked Feudal Lords were serving the appetite for soldiers of British Empire both inside and out side Indian subcontinent.
I am not so sure who is messing up with the institution, if you look at the posts that has been exchanged between you and myself you will not deny the fact that you are defending very bad practices of a few Army Generals that has brought a very bad name to Pakistan Army both at home and around the world, our Army has been called “rouge” Army, it has been called a “group of mercenaries”. I have witnessed with my own eyes diminishing respect that the uniform once used to carry with it. My elder brother is an Army officer; he is not allowed to leave his house with his uniform in the capital of the country. If that is state of excellence and respect then my friend it is better to analyze the situation, make it an institution accountable to its actions and bring back the excellence that it use to carry.
Remember, a child who is never accountable for any of his actions is always spoiled.