Richard Holbrooke does not use the word Kashmir

http://www.pakportals.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=51&p=59#p59

WASHINGTON: It is a disgrace that the Obama administration’s special representative for Pakistan and Afghanistan does not even use the word Kashmir, says Congressman Joe Pitts.

The Pennsylvania Republican made this observation during a two-day conference on Kashmir -----

My Comments:

This is a clear instance of America’s unwillingnes to press India to resolve Kahsmir issue -----

  1. Why US has turned a blind eye to the humanitarian sufferings of the people of Kashmir by uniformed Indian Thags?

  2. Why this sudden American leniency with India

  3. Is US covertly aiding and preparing India against China?

What are your thoughts?

Number 3 is the root cause. There are plenty docs/analysis on this. Its called policy of containment without head on confrontation.

Re: Richard Holbrooke does not use the word Kashmir

Time to rid ourselves from conspiracy theories.

Here are the facts if we are willing to use our aql.

Americans cannot force India out of ICK, or Pakistan out of PCK. Both Pakistan and India have HUGE armies that are designed and produced to do one thing and one thing only. Defend their part of Kashmir.

Unless Americans are willing to put 1 million US soldiers in ICK and 1 million in PCK, there is no way India or Pak would give up on their part of K.

Similarly Indian army cannot kick us out of PCK
While we cannot kick Indians out of ICK.

In that situation, we have a stalemate, and cold war.

And Americans will never involve themselves in this regional cold war.

It will be wise for us, to quit worrying about K,

because KP and B are in severe danger.

We should not be monkeying with areas that we don't have, while losing the ones we do.

Haven't you ever heard that 4 birds in hand are always better than a half eaten dead bird in the bush (aka in your neighbor's plate)?

**“Time to rid ourselves from conspiracy theories.” **

**“Here are the facts if we are willing to use our aql.” **

“Americans cannot force India out of ICK, or Pakistan out of PCK. Both Pakistan and India have HUGE armies that are designed and produced to do one thing and one thing only. Defend their part of Kashmir.”

What you postulate here seems more hypothecated speculations rather than facts ----- and besides my “aql” tells me to heavily emphasize on THE CHINA FACTOR when looking at Increasing U.S. attention paid to India over the past few years, especially Washington's decision to extend civil nuclear deals to India ----- which surprised Chinese policymakers and caused them to reassess their policies toward India.

1) The recent sale of six C130-J Hercules military transport aircraft worth $1 billion is the largest U.S. military sale to India to date.

2) In 2006 the U.S. Congress authorized the transfer of the USS Trenton amphibious transport dock to India.

3) U.S. firms are also competing with Russians and Europeans to fulfill an Indian request for 126 multi-role combat aircraft worth close to $10 billion.

4) U.S. companies are bidding to supply 197 light observation helicopters and 22 combat helicop­ters to the Indian Air Force and the Army Aviation Corps at a cost of about $1.5 billion.

In 2005, India and the U.S. signed a 10-year defense framework agreement that calls for joint military exercises, increased defense-related trade, and the establishment of a defense and procurement production group. The U.S. and India have conducted more than 50 military exercises since 2002, demonstrating how far the military partnership has progressed in a relatively short period.

Now lets us look at THE PAK-CHINA FACTOR in chronological order ----- if you will ----- here is what my “aql” tells me.

Pakistan and China have long-standing strategic ties, and China is Pakistan's largest defense supplier. China transferred equipment and technology to Pakistan's nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs throughout the 1980s and 1990s, enhancing Pakistan's strength in the South Asian strategic balance. Stephen Cohen, an expert on the Indian and Pakistani militaries, describes China as pursuing a classic balance of power by supporting Pakistan in a relationship that mirrors the relationship between the U.S. and Israel. The most significant development in China-Pakistan military cooperation occurred in 1992 when China supplied Pakistan with 34 short-range ballistic M-11 missiles.

China has helped Pakistan build two nuclear reactors at the Chasma site in the Punjab Province and continues to support Pakistan's nuclear pro­gram, although it has been sensitive to international condemnation of the A. Q. Khan affair and has cal­ibrated its nuclear assistance to Pakistan accord­ingly. In the run-up to Chinese President Hu Jintao's visit to Pakistan in November 2006, media reports speculated that China would sign a major nuclear energy cooperation agreement with Pakistan. In the end, however, the Chinese provided a general pledge of support to Pakistan's nuclear energy program, but refrained from announcing plans to supply new nuclear reactors. During Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari's visit to Beijing in mid-October 2008, Beijing did come through with a pledge to help Pakistan construct two new nuclear power plants at Chasma, but did not propose or agree to a major China-Pakistan nuclear deal akin to the U.S.-India civil nuclear agreement.

China has helped Pakistan develop a deep-sea port at the naval base at Gawadar in Baluchistan on the Arabian Sea. The port would allow China to secure oil and gas supplies from the Persian Gulf and project power in the Indian Ocean.

China financed 80 percent of the $250 million for completion of the first phase of the project and reportedly is funding most of the sec­ond phase of the project as well.

The bottom line is that US is preparing India as so to speak ----- AMERICAN HEDGE ----- against China.

If you still want to believe all this as **"conspiracy theories" *-----*then be my guest and knock your socks off -----

woah, same old apologist Pakistan hater burqa is back!

I'm assuming by ICK and PCK you mean "indian captured kashmir" and same fore pakistan.
before you start using terms like PCK again, let me ask you one thing, have you ever been to AJK? they do not consider themselves as captured by pakistan, but as liberated by pakistan from india, and consider themselves as part of pakistan, while on the other side, people of indian occupide jammu and kashmir consider themselves oppressed, that they are.

and for your information we definitely can kick indians out of Kashamir, and we will surely do, and when we do that, we will kick you out too

there is no future of Pakistan without Kashmir, you like it or not

Noble thoughts ----- nobler words ----- Say Amen to my brother!

ICK - Indian controlled kashmir
PCK - Pakistani controlled kashmir

And yes I have served in PCK.

if thats the case, then its even more sad to hear this from a person who served in that area and still holds such kind of thoughts.

you should replace Indian Controld Kashmir with Indian Occupied Kashmir, because there is a clear difference in simply "controlling" a place, and controlling an illegally occupied area.

I've relatives, and many close friends from Kashmir, they all have their families/ extended families in Indian Occupied Kashmir, and none of them is happy with indian army "controlling" them, instead they would happily join Pakistan.

and by no means Pak Army in AJK is equal (in numbers) to indian army in Indian Occupied Kashmir as you mentioned in your post above.

Indian's economy and agriculture does not rely on Kashmir, while Pakistan's economy and agriculture does

there is a loooooong list why Pakistan cannot stop worrying about Kashmir as you wish.

Aceones: I think Pakistan should re-focus it's energies in retaining what it has, instead of trying to grab Indian Kashmir.

Re: Richard Holbrooke does not use the word Kashmir

^ one should not compromise on core interest so easily, Pakistan should maintain a good balance between the two, instead of letting one go while trying to hold the other

Re: Richard Holbrooke does not use the word Kashmir

Why can't we just convert the LOC to an international border and move on with our lives!! How much more lives will be lost and how much more money will be wasted (while other lives are suffering because they could've been developed with all this money)??????

Punjabi was split into Indian and Pakistani Punjab. Same with Bengal. Let's do it up with Kashmir too. I see that as the only possible solution going forward.

Aceones: Use diplomacy, win India over (even if it's only for the time being), start trading, become prosperous and raise the economy.

Otherwise, India who feels threatened by Pakistan, will do all in it's power to weaken or even again break up Pakistan..

Think: Akal bari ya bhans.

Re: Richard Holbrooke does not use the word Kashmir

in this case the chicken came first, Pakistan grabbed a part of India and is still holding to it,

there is good future for Pakistan with India(as a friend), that is for sure.

i am saying it again, China and India have more than $50 billion trade, we both earn profits from it,
while China may help you with offense and defense and with nuclear reactors, China is making us more profit than you will ever get out of her.

there is no good comparison among them. the part of punjab india got, did not have majority muslim population, except a few areas which is again wrong, same was the case with bengal. Kashmir is altogether a different issue. even after holding that piece of land by force, and keeping all that muslim population hostage against their will for more than 50 years, india still could not win their hearts. this single reason is good enough for india to get out of india fast, or the world will see india being fixed by breaking it apart.

diplomacy did not work in last 50 years, india tried to break up pakistan repeatedly in the past, and still trying, no matter what. like they say, kuttay ki dum terhi hee rehti hay. you cannot expect any good from a neighbors when core of their ideology is based of deception, lies and divide, and who always attacks you harder when to try to make peace with them.

what kind of crappy diplomacy is it that india keep on repeating same lines of terrorism and never look at what they are doing in pakistan (baluchistan and fata)?

ok good for you if china is making you enough profit, why don't you then be happy and keep away from confronting china then?

and as for the chiken part, you are wrong. Kashmir was a declared part of "pakistan to be", pakistan acted on very solid grounds that india is going to put their army in that area, and it proved 100% because there was no way that if india was not already moving in, it could take over all that area just in couple of days back then.

this is simple and biggest propaganda to turn Pakistanis against India, either you are propagating it or you are believing in it, 'that India is trying to grab or break Pakistan',

all this propaganda might have started to protect Pakistan's Identity as an Muslim country by propagating India as a Hindu country to keep unity against Hindus and to attract more Muslims, but matter of fact is India is not a Hindu only country, we have over 15 crore Muslims in India, most of them even if given a free ticket to Pakistans 5star hotels will never even imagine steeping into Pakistan.

all this i have said will be ridiculous if you happen to live in a developed multi cultured country, if you are so Muslim why you want to live in those a countries by choice, i live in my India and i am not living in Hindua.

actually this post of yours is ridiculous...

65 war was propaganda??? its a fact, india attacked, and then we kicked you out and even took over a good part but our sick politicians and top leadership did suck.

71 war was propaganda??? its a fact, india invaded and broke pakistan apart

4-5 months stand off in 2002 was a propaganda??? its again a fact, the world knows india had put a huge force on border ready to move

you people only know to lie. this is useless discussion with an indian, the thing is for pakistanies to understand not for ignorant indians like you.

and as for living in another country, what it has to do with kashmir anyway? when you guys find out that you do not have weight in your argument you string bringing in things which have nothing to do with the topic. shame on you.

and what did you say? indian is not a hindu state? yeah nothing more could be a bigger joke than this, the world knows everything about the biggest democracy and "shining" india very well. you better stay in your filthy india and tell your coward army and leaders to pack their bags and get ready for being kicked out of kashmir soon

Whoa hold on partner ----- how does it(Kashmir) becomes "Indian Kashmir"?

What do you think Kashmiris are? Cattle?

Are you even willing to give them(Kashmiris) a right to choose what's best for them? ----- You guys did "adhere
to this view" as per your then PM Nehru ----- why back off now?

I guess it was the last straw that broke the camel's back!!!!!

Does following ring a bell?


*Nehru's telegram to Liaqat Ali Khan On 27 October 1947, the day the Indian army officially invaded Kashmir.

Jawaharlal Nehru sent the following telegram to Liaqat Ali Khan, the Prime
Minister of Pakistan:

"I should like to make it clear that the question of aiding Kashmir in this emergency is not designed in any way to influence the State to accede to India. Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with the wishes of people and we adhere to this view"


U.N. Resolution August 13, 1948.

The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan reaffirm their wish that the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people and to that end, upon acceptance of the truce agreement, both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured.

The High Commands of the Indian and Pakistani forces agree to refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. ( For the purpose of these proposals forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides.

*

GMD2B: Unfortunately for Pakistan, Nehru's views were negated by the people, his influence finished & the last nail struck after the loss to China in 1962.

The Shimla agreement has muddied the water by stating all disputes will be settled bilaterally

The world has moved on.The ground realities changed. UN itself has stated that the resolutions are not enforceable, not valid anymore.

The Kashmiries must not be given false hope and encouragement by their leaders nor Pakistan, since this is prolonging their pain. (Examples: Chechnya, Tibet, Baluchistan etc)