Re: Reza Aslan was wrong on many fronts as well....interesting read
peace psyah bhai
OK so ISIS are a weapon being used by west to humiliate and alienate muslims...ok theek hai..man liya
now lets look inward as well to see what are we doing in muslim world to feed such monsters
lets take the example of sauid arabia....our ideological center..let me copy from a recent article:
***"doesn’t Saudi Arabia do all this as well? Friday prayers in Riyadh and Jeddah are often followed by public decapitations. Over 50 people have literally lost their heads this year alone.
And Saudi Arabia, remember, is the self-styled role model for the ummah, or the nation of Islam.
******With their vast, unearned wealth, the Saudis have saturated most of the Muslim world with their Wahabi/Salafi version of a literalist Islam that makes no allowance for changing times or human frailty. It is this harsh strain that is fuelling much of the violence and turmoil that has shaken the Muslim world for the last quarter century, and tarnished the image of Islam.
***Now, the chickens are coming home to roost. After Al Qaeda, the franchise has morphed into groups like Jabhat al-Nusra in Syria, the Islamic State, and Boko Haram in Nigeria. Closer to home, the Taliban and several other militant gangs compete over how many innocent people they can slaughter"
Peace phoenixdesi
Yes ... and who are responsible for the Saudi situation? How did the Saudis get in to power? You might have to look further back in history ... Who are supporting the Saudis today? Who are selling them weapons?
Re: Reza Aslan was wrong on many fronts as well....interesting read
the fact of the matter is that
**"While **states struggle to stamp out this menace, the poison flows un*chec*ked from its Saudi source. Poorer Muslim countries like Pakistan are too beholden to Riyadh for aid and oil on deferred payment to object to the cash our madressahs and hard-line clerics get from public and private Arab sources.
***Many experts on the Middle East have repeatedly pointed out the nexus between the Saudis and the rise of jihadi violence. But the world has stood by silently because of Saudi oil, and its purchase of billions of dollars of arms from Western sources. This makes these weapons cheaper for the countries where they are manufactured, apart from generating vast profits made on spares and training"
***so dont we think we do need to look inward as well to root out extremism psyah bhai?
No ... take out the supply chain from the source - Saudis are not at the beginning of this chain that you have so artfully shown ... there are entities that come before them too ... Saudi support to extreme groups is another symptom to the problem.
Nature has a way to counter-balance evil ... remove that evil then the counter-balance will have to go back too ... We don't even have full control over ourselves - what worth is there in looking internally?
By doing so we are being walked down the path of putting ourselves in to a position that will position us as a buffer between the external evil and the evil on the doorsteps ... It is better for us to step away and become better people. Unify - In order to gain strength we need to unify ... we cannot allow ourselves to be split up further. Pointing fingers internally will have the effect of more fault lines forming, it will further weaken us.
In what you have described above - who is benefiting the most? Then you will see whose interest this situation is in ... and think if we try to replace the Saudis - who will we put in - in their place? Will we be allowed to replace the Saudis? Will the Saudis take that move lying down? Or is that a recipe for further instability?
So you are quite welcome to look internally - but why should we - neither are we responsible for the war nor are the extremists going to listen to our ideology - even if we did give a fatwa of total pacifism - who is going to listen to such voices? They don't follow us ... they make up their own interpretations ... looking internally is just a guilt trip ... the act is being done to demonise Islam for the purpose of anti-dawah ... There is another 'problem' and that is the appeal of Islam - people are turning to Islam in the West while existing Muslim populated areas are in an unholy war ... This call to look internally is the Western response to slow down the Islamic conversion ... the threat of Islam is not on the military level - it is on the heart and faith level ... if we become better Muslims then the appeal of Islam will increase ... people will see the value of it ... I feel the best way to struggle against evil is to show how - "good" we can be ... looking internally on others is really just a distraction. Looking internally on ourselves is the way ... but don't abandon Islam - that would be the wrong move ... we must become more religious, more merciful more compassionate ... as we say are the Attributes of Allah (SWT) in the basmillah.
Re: Reza Aslan was wrong on many fronts as well....interesting read
Peace phoenixdesi
Yes ... and who are responsible for the Saudi situation? How did the Saudis get in to power? You might have to look further back in history ... Who are supporting the Saudis today? Who are selling them weapons?
Re: Reza Aslan was wrong on many fronts as well....interesting read
I don't think anyone will disagree that western interventions, fueled by certain western governments desire for geopolitical gains, is a major cause behind much of the turmoil in certain muslim countries.
But at the same time, why are we constantly seeing these power struggles between different fractions in muslim countries? Whats the root cause behind that?
If the US provides certain groups with weapons in Iraq or Syria or wherever, why are those guns, bombs and tanks always turned towards our own people? Why the slaughtering and butchering? Why these constant power struggles? Why can't sunnis tolerate shias, and vice versa? Why are we more inclined to condemn Israeli atrocities against the Palestinians than we are to condemn TTP's butchering of our own people?
Why are we intolerant toward those who are different than us? We need to find the root cause of these issues.
Re: Reza Aslan was wrong on many fronts as well....interesting read
I don't think anyone will disagree that western interventions, fueled by certain western governments desire for geopolitical gains, is a major cause behind much of the turmoil in certain muslim countries.
But at the same time, why are we constantly seeing these power struggles between different fractions in muslim countries? Whats the root cause behind that?
If the US provides certain groups with weapons in Iraq or Syria or wherever, why are those guns, bombs and tanks always turned towards our own people? Why the slaughtering and butchering? Why these constant power struggles? Why can't sunnis tolerate shias, and vice versa? Why are we more inclined to condemn Israeli atrocities against the Palestinians than we are to condemn TTP's butchering of our own people?
Why are we intolerant toward those who are different than us? We need to find the root cause of these issues.
Because we have left Islam ...
Because we have love for the dunya
Because we have fear of death
Because of those western governments sticking their fingers between the faults lines in Muslims and prizing them apart ... They are dividing us also, don't believe this is not on their road map
Looking internally about how we can love each other more is vastly different to how this thread began ... which is about inspecting ourselves for extreme elements and altering or rejecting or blaming Islam for it. That is what KK Shahid wants ...
Re: Reza Aslan was wrong on many fronts as well....interesting read
Whether we speak of Islam or Hinduism or Christianity- I prefer not to focus on one religion - the problem is not caused because one goes away from religion. It is caused when one goes so deep into religion that one cannot use common sense to interpret Scripture. It is always black and white for such folks.
Re: Reza Aslan was wrong on many fronts as well....interesting read
Whether we speak of Islam or Hinduism or Christianity- I prefer not to focus on one religion - the problem is not caused because one goes away from religion. It is caused when one goes so deep into religion that one cannot use common sense to interpret Scripture. It is always black and white for such folks.
Peace Southie
Islam requires us to discern well ... Going deep into Islam requires us to discern very well ...
Islam requires us to be compassionate ... Going deep into Islam requires us to be very compassionate ...
Islam requires us to be strict on ourselves and lenient on others ... Going deep into Islam requires us to be more free of material concerns
Islam allows retaliation but prefers forgiveness ... Going deep into Islam means less retaliation and more forgiveness
Islam is about not being guided by biases or desires, but by wisdom and principle ... Going deep into Islam is eradication of bias, subdued desires height of wisdom and adherence to principles.
Islam is about taking the middle path ... Going deep into Islam means never moving from the middle path.
Going deep into Islam is the hardest position to take ... the extremists are not going deep into anything ... they are taking short cuts to fulfilling political ends, justifying their hatred and fueling their passions. You think that religion is the cause of extremism - that is why you have said that going deep in to any religion leads to injustices ... that is not true ... People lose tolerance for others in black and white situations ... piety in Islam means you increase your tolerances for others ... So I don't know how wrong you can be ... the people killing are over-zealous about cherry-picked statements that they have taken outside the calibrated body of Islamic knowledge and hence applied different meanings and different interpretations result ... their wrongly interpreted basis leads on to extremes as you can see ... the problem is not because of the religion - it is due to their already imbalanced states, imbalanced ideals, impatience, despair, rage, not seeking out the authentic scholars with approved transmissions, etc ... they put the cart before the horse ... they view the religion from behind their preconceptions and slants ... Any person seeking the truth will view a matter by first trying his hardest to understand the religion in its context, then at each stage seek second and third opinions about each of his insights and understandings to ensure he is treading the right path and be humble enough and empty enough to adjust, but while all the time seeking rectification with the heart and with society and the broader Islamic spectrum because we have been given strong guidance in this matter ... To know we are on the right path we have to look towards the majority scholarly opinion ... it is easy ...
Re: Reza Aslan was wrong on many fronts as well....interesting read
Peace Southie
Islam requires us to discern well ... Going deep into Islam requires us to discern very well ...
Islam requires us to be compassionate ... Going deep into Islam requires us to be very compassionate ...
Islam requires us to be strict on ourselves and lenient on others ... Going deep into Islam requires us to be more free of material concerns
Islam allows retaliation but prefers forgiveness ... Going deep into Islam means less retaliation and more forgiveness
Islam is about not being guided by biases or desires, but by wisdom and principle ... Going deep into Islam is eradication of bias, subdued desires height of wisdom and adherence to principles.
Islam is about taking the middle path ... Going deep into Islam means never moving from the middle path.
Going deep into Islam is the hardest position to take ... the extremists are not going deep into anything ... they are taking short cuts to fulfilling political ends, justifying their hatred and fueling their passions. You think that religion is the cause of extremism - that is why you have said that going deep in to any religion leads to injustices ... that is not true ... People lose tolerance for others in black and white situations ... piety in Islam means you increase your tolerances for others ... So I don't know how wrong you can be ... the people killing are over-zealous about cherry-picked statements that they have taken outside the calibrated body of Islamic knowledge and hence applied different meanings and different interpretations result ... their wrongly interpreted basis leads on to extremes as you can see ... the problem is not because of the religion - it is due to their already imbalanced states, imbalanced ideals, impatience, despair, rage, not seeking out the authentic scholars with approved transmissions, etc ... they put the cart before the horse ... they view the religion from behind their preconceptions and slants ... Any person seeking the truth will view a matter by first trying his hardest to understand the religion in its context, then at each stage seek second and third opinions about each of his insights and understandings to ensure he is treading the right path and be humble enough and empty enough to adjust, but while all the time seeking rectification with the heart and with society and the broader Islamic spectrum because we have been given strong guidance in this matter ... To know we are on the right path we have to look towards the majority scholarly opinion ... it is easy ...
Peace Psyah.
Babri Masjid happened because some felt that was Ram's janmabhoomi. While those of us who consider Ramayana something to learn from were aghast at this. That is an example of extreme religion gone bad.
I concede all your points. Except the last 4 lines. Especially the last two lines. Case in point the majority deciding who can call themselves Muslims. And making it illegal for some to call themselves Muslims.
Since you brought up "rectification" , I would submit that situation needs it.
Re: Reza Aslan was wrong on many fronts as well....interesting read
Peace Psyah.
Babri Masjid happened because some felt that was Ram's janmabhoomi. While those of us who consider Ramayana something to learn from were aghast at this. That is an example of extreme religion gone bad.
I concede all your points. Except the last 4 lines. Especially the last two lines. Case in point the majority deciding who can call themselves Muslims. And making it illegal for some to call themselves Muslims.
Since you brought up "rectification" , I would submit that situation needs it.
Peace Southie
For the two points that need clarification:
a) Going to the majority of scholars are those who number highly don't alienate each other and basically are the biggest network of scholars who have ijazahs (license) by the generation of scholars before them to teach. That is who we go to - there is no question of saying "we are majority" no ... the layman must seek guidance for his own life and not be concerned about the life of others, except in the case of searching for the right scholars to choose. The teachings of Islam need to be preserved so the best way to ensure that is not to deem certain people as non-Muslims, but to establish aqeedah and affiliate to it and then follow those who adhere to and teach according to that aqeedah.
b) I agree rectification should be a constant condition in the heart of the believer ... orientated to God, when or if he falls, he dusts himself down and rectifies ... This advice can only go as far as me ... I can't give this advice to ISIS members.
*I have no time to be concerned with the sins of others, when my own heart needs to be purged from the filth.
*It would be doing the blame game all over again if I were to wag my finger at anyone else ... If My God, wants me to be a guide for others then may that happen through my actions on my self-discipline ... never has chastising others led to their devotion ... but rather compassion often leads to compassion and self-rectification leads others to self-rectify.
So if you want ISIS to go - please encourage the Muslims to become more religious ...
Re: Reza Aslan was wrong on many fronts as well....interesting read
Peace Southie
For the two points that need clarification:
a) Going to the majority of scholars are those who number highly don't alienate each other and basically are the biggest network of scholars who have ijazahs (license) by the generation of scholars before them to teach. That is who we go to - there is no question of saying "we are majority" no ... the layman must seek guidance for his own life and not be concerned about the life of others, except in the case of searching for the right scholars to choose. The teachings of Islam need to be preserved so the best way to ensure that is not to deem certain people as non-Muslims, but to establish aqeedah and affiliate to it and then follow those who adhere to and teach according to that aqeedah.
b) I agree rectification should be a constant condition in the heart of the believer ... orientated to God, when or if he falls, he dusts himself down and rectifies ... This advice can only go as far as me ... I can't give this advice to ISIS members.
*I have no time to be concerned with the sins of others, when my own heart needs to be purged from the filth.
*It would be doing the blame game all over again if I were to wag my finger at anyone else ... If My God, wants me to be a guide for others then may that happen through my actions on my self-discipline ... never has chastising others led to their devotion ... but rather compassion often leads to compassion and self-rectification leads others to self-rectify.
So if you want ISIS to go - please encourage the Muslims to become more religious ...
Peace Psyah
Re: 1st para, last sentence. I assume aqeedah is a set of principles. So you agree that the government or the majority should not be in the business of making it illegal for some to call themselves Muslims. If that is the case, I concur.
Re 2nd para, I would never associate ISIS with any religion.