Revering Muhammad (PBUH)

Society Religion & Philosophy
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when it comes to forcing opinions on people's daily lives some go to extra lengths to dig up hadiths and instruct people to do such and such.. now that a non-Muslim has questioned the status of the last Prophet in Muslim's lives..everyone is doing backflips and digging out other available material to say it ain't so.

Stu you're right (for once). Muslims (the majority) do indeed put the Prophet above what they were given "The Qur'an". They even believe he'll save them from hellfire on the Day of Judgement.. if that isn't elevating him to the status of a "Savior" .. just like Jesus.. nothing is.

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PA

So, according to your statement, the majority of Muslims will burn in hellfire as the emulation equivalent to Jesus the Saviour, because he God or Son of God, is Shirk. And the Qur'aan tells us that Shirk is one sin which is non-forgivable.

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[QUOTE]
Stu you're right (for once).
[/QUOTE]

Aw shucks. Thanks PA, everyone gets luck sometimes I guess.

As I said, it appears to me muslims idolize their prophet much more than Christians do Jesus. These specific quotes from above:

"he is considered in Islam as a role model for all of humanity"
"The best of human beings"
"Muhammed PBUH was sent as a mercy for ALL mankind to lead them out of the dark and into the light ... He was the role model for mankind ... because Muslims believe that Muhammads PBUH actions were directly ordered from God ..."

(to me at least) clearly show that he is worshipped and idolized, regardless of the fact that his image is never shown. What that means to your status as a muslim, I can't say.

And to those who said that "most christians view Jesus as God, that's a fact", I would say you are wrong. While you might like to think this is true because to you it effectively nullifies christianity as a monotheistc religion, just looking at catholicism (which is by far the biggest branch of christianity), which clearly believe that Jesus was the son of God, you are proven wrong. In my experience, only the more extreme protestant sects believe Jesus actually was God in human form.

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Stu

Would you care comment on the following Biblical verses:

" Therefore you shall be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Jesus, Matt 5:48)

" He that hath My commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father; and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." .(Jesus, John 14:21)

THAT HOLY THING...SHALL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD-Lk 1:35.

THIS IS THE SON OF GOD-Jn 1:34; 5:36.

THOU ART THE SON OF GOD-Jn 1:49.

THOU ART CHRIST THE SON OF GOD-Lk 4:41.

-WE BELIEVE AND ARE SURE THAT THOU ART THAT CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD-Jn 6:69. etc etc etc.

Moving back onto the subject, you were given broad comments concerning Muhammed PBUH. I will now quote to you from the Qur'aan:

IBRAHIM (14:1)

Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture which We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) that thereby thou mayst bring forth mankind from darkness unto light, by the permission of their Lord, unto the path of the Mighty, the Owner of Praise,

AL BAQARAH (2:119)

Lo! We have sent thee (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire.

AL IMRAN (3:31)

Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

AL IMRAN (3:84)

Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

AL AHZAB (33:56)

Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.

SABA' (34:28)

And We have not sent thee (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of good tidings and a warner unto all mankind; but most of mankind know not.

SHAAD (38:65)

Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I am only a warner, and there is no God save Allah, the One, the Absolute,

AZ-ZUMAR (39:2)

Lo! We have revealed the Scripture unto thee (Muhammad) with truth; so worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only).

AZ-ZUMAR (39:41)

Lo! We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture for mankind with truth. Then whosoever goeth right it is for his soul, and whosoever strayeth, strayeth only to its hurt. And thou art not a warder over them.

MUHAMMAD (47:2)

And those who believe and do good works and believe in that which is revealed unto Muhammad - and it is the truth from their Lord - He riddeth them of their ill-deeds and improveth their state.

AL FAT-H (48:29)

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.

Unfortunately Stu, you just don't understand the difference between Respect, Numbers and Shirk. Even God has given Muhammed PBUH respect and ordered the Angels to send blessings upon him. This doesn't however, make Muhammed PBUH worthy of worship. (see above ayat)

Worshipping is what Christians have done to Jesus, even though he will be a witness against them, and what Hindus do with statues.

Muslims only Worship Allah SWT alone as quoted in the Qur'aanic ayats. You do not accept this and are entitled to your opinion. However, I would suggest you read the Qur'aan from beginning to end and then decide.

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Practice vs. theory (scripture). It is easier to find who Christians who do not act as the Bible teaches than it is to find those who do. I imagine it is that way with most religous teachings and followers. So a study of scriptures isn't going to tell us anything about how or to who day-to-day practicioners worship.

Why is the "Son of God" designation the one that breaks the camel's back for everyone to single out Christians for idolization? Worship is worship, no matter if the subject is an offspring of God or not. One does not need a statue, cruifix or papers that indicate a kinship to God to idolize or worship someone.

idolize
1. To regard with blind admiration or devotion. See Synonyms at revere.
2. To worship as an idol.
note there is no prerequisite for subject to be "son of God"

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Muslim’s do indeed respect the Prophet (PBUH), the majority do not hold the prophet (PBUH) in higher regard than God or the word of God (the Quran), but use the Sunnah and Hadith as admirable examples of the practice of Islam.

In my opinion idolatry of the prophet (PBUH) is non-existent in the main body of Islam after fifteen centuries and is not likely to increase as the source materials for the belief system, the Quran unchanged for fifteen centuries and hadith have remained unchanged other than re-interpretation for over almost as long.

The Quran is the miracle of God and the hadith the miracle of mankind, to suggest that half a million hadith are without error would in itself be against the grain of Islam. However, in the vein of other member’s comments the recorded sayings and actions of the prophet (PBUH) can be adhered to and used as a guide when not in contradiction to the Quran, whilst the Quran (God’s word) remains the central authority in Islam; and God remains without equal amongst Muslims.

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole: *
*idolize
1. To regard with blind admiration or devotion. See Synonyms at revere.
2. To worship as an idol.
note there is no prerequisite for subject to be "son of God"
[/QUOTE]
When talking about muslims and how they feel about Muhammad (PBUH), the first definition is ok. The second is totally inaccurate if you use the literal meaning of "worship".

How christians feel and respect about Jesus is for you to tell us. Muslims (an overwhelming majority of them) respect Jesus (AS) as much as they respect any other prophet, namely, they say their blessings on all prophets when they say the name, will never redicule them or mock their message, do not make jokes about them and accept their message is true and authentic from God.

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Stu you're right (for once). Muslims (the majority) **do* indeed put the Prophet above what they were given "The Qur'an". They even believe he'll save them from hellfire on the Day of Judgement.. if that isn't elevating him to the status of a "Savior" .. just like Jesus.. nothing is.
[/QUOTE]

where did u read that????
in story books????

had u ever read hadith u wud have come across this....

*Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 16:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

When Allah revealed the Verse: "Warn your nearest kinsmen," Allah's Apostle got up and said, "O people of Quraish (or said similar words)! Buy (i.e. save) yourselves (from the Hellfire) as I cannot save you from Allah's Punishment; O Bani Abd Manaf! I cannot save you from Allah's Punishment, O Safiya, the Aunt of Allah's Apostle! I cannot save you from Allah's Punishment; O Fatima bint Muhammad! Ask me anything from my wealth, but I cannot save you from Allah's Punishment." *

but all u ever do is ignor saheeh hadith and cook up ur own stories....

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Read this ‘story’.. it’s from your ‘story books’… I have copy pasted the whole ‘story’ for your convenience..

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532v:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "The believers will be kept (waiting) on the Day of Resurrection so long that they will become worried and say, "Let us ask somebody to intercede far us with our Lord so that He may relieve us from our place.

Then they will go to Adam and say, ‘You are Adam, the father of the people. Allah created you with His Own Hand and made you reside in His Paradise and ordered His angels to prostrate before you, and taught you the names of all things will you intercede for us with your Lord so that He may relieve us from this place of ours? Adam will say, ‘I am not fit for this undertaking.’ He will mention his mistakes he had committed, i.e., his eating off the tree though he had been forbidden to do so. He will add, ‘Go to Noah, the first prophet sent by Allah to the people of the Earth.’ The people will go to Noah who will say, ‘I am not fit for this undertaking’ He will mention his mistake which he had done, i.e., his asking his Lord without knowledge.’ He will say (to them), ‘Go to Abraham, Khalil Ar-Rahman.’ They will go to Abraham who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He would mention three words by which he told a lie, and say (to them). ‘Go to Moses, a slave whom Allah gave the Torah and spoke to, directly and brought near Him, for conversation.’

They will go to Moses who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He will mention his mistake he made, i.e., killing a person, and will say (to them), ‘Go to Jesus, Allah’s slave and His Apostle, and a soul created by Him and His Word.’ (Be: And it was.) They will go to Jesus who will say, ‘I am not fit for this undertaking but you’d better go to Muhammad the slave whose past and future sins have been forgiven by Allah.’ So they will come to me, and I will ask my Lord’s permission to enter His House and then I will be permitted. When I see Him I will fall down in prostration before Him, and He will leave me (in prostration) as long as He will, and then He will say, ‘O Muhammad, lift up your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask (for anything) for it will be granted:’ Then I will raise my head and glorify my Lord with certain praises which He has taught me. Allah will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people) I will take them out and make them enter Paradise." (Qatada said: I heard Anas saying that), the Prophet said, "I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, and then I will return and ask my Lord for permission to enter His House and I will be permitted.

When I will see Him I will fall down in prostration before Him and He will leave me in prostration as long as He will let me (in that state), and then He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask, your request will be granted.’ " The Prophet added, “So I will raise my head and glorify and praise Him as He has taught me. **Then I will intercede and He will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people). I will take them out and let them enter Paradise.” **(Qatada added: I heard Anas saying that) the Prophet said, 'I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, and I will return for the third time and will ask my Lord for permission to enter His house, and I will be allowed to enter.

When I see Him, I will fall down in prostration before Him, and will remain in prostration as long as He will, and then He will say, ‘Raise your head, O Muhammad, and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask, for your request will be granted.’ So I will raise my head and praise Allah as He has taught me and then **I will intercede and He will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people). I will take them out and let them enter Paradise." (Qatada said: I heard Anas saying that) the Prophet said, “So I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, till none will remain in the Fire except those whom Quran will imprison **(i.e., those who are destined for eternal life in the fire).” The narrator then recited the Verse:-- "It may be that your Lord will raise you to a Station of Praise and Glory.’ (17.79) The narrator added: This is the Station of Praise and Glory which Allah has promised to your Prophet.

PakistaniAbroad: Read your own ‘story books’ before you barge in a thread with accusations that I ‘cook up stories’.. apparently the narrators in Sahih Bukhari and other ‘story books’ of yours already beat me to it.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Stu: *

Aw shucks. Thanks PA, everyone gets luck sometimes I guess.

As I said, it appears to me muslims idolize their prophet much more than Christians do Jesus. These specific quotes from above:

"he is considered in Islam as a role model for all of humanity"
"The best of human beings"
"Muhammed PBUH was sent as a mercy for ALL mankind to lead them out of the dark and into the light ... He was the role model for mankind ... because Muslims believe that Muhammads PBUH actions were directly ordered from God ..."

(to me at least) clearly show that he is worshipped and idolized, regardless of the fact that his image is never shown. What that means to your status as a muslim, I can't say.

And to those who said that "most christians view Jesus as God, that's a fact", I would say you are wrong. While you might like to think this is true because to you it effectively nullifies christianity as a monotheistc religion, just looking at catholicism (which is by far the biggest branch of christianity), which clearly believe that Jesus was the son of God, you are proven wrong. In my experience, only the more extreme protestant sects believe Jesus actually was God in human form.
[/QUOTE]

Stu,

As a catholic, in my understanding we do view Jesus as the son of God, yes, and sent by god as a lamb for the forgiveness of sins and Gods promise for life everlasting.

And I am not a good catholic that can quote doctrine and proofs..

But in my learning Jesus is part of the holy trinity of God. God the father, the son, the holy spirit.

In my understanding and comprehension the story is that Mary gave birth to Jesus by God's command. She is considered to have concieved Jesus without sin. Jesus was concieved by God's holy spirit. God ordained Jesus to be and so it happend.

And by God's decree Jesus was endowed with human desires and emotions to teach and set an example for mankind and to sacrafice himself for the sake of man.

Thus he is concidered in my teaching to be God's begotten son. Not in the sense that God impregnated Mary and Jesus was born. In the sense that God ordained Jesus to the world by his immaculate decree.

That is why he is called the son of God.

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So leaving aside the birth of jesus, according to christians what is the difference between Jesus and other prophets of Allah?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
So leaving aside the birth of jesus, according to christians what is the difference between Jesus and other prophets of Allah?
[/QUOTE]

Good Question.

and I don't know the answer.

But what I do know is that God know's the answer.

And that answer may not be the answer expected ever.