Retirement account and buying car

Re: Retirement account and buying car

To add to what rebelx listed above, nobody needs to be worried that by saving in a 401k acct that you're taking money away from circulation which apparently somebody claim harms the poor.

To the contrary, such investment in 401k actually puts the money in circulation since whatever vehicle you invest in, that vehicle (whether bank govt or company) uses that money to run and expand its business thus adding jobs, taxes for welfare and more goods to consume thus making goods more affordable for the poor.

So I could ague that it is by NOT saving that you harm the poor.

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Re: Retirement account and buying car

Tariq good point. Its not like 401K is a dabba and you put your gold in it and stash it away.

Re: Retirement account and buying car

I think this is flawed, one can claim any money untouched as "expenses for everyday life in future" hence no zakat.

Zakat is on any excess money TODAY which was untouched in last one year.

Re: Retirement account and buying car

sure, but then zakat should be paid after figuring out what will happen if you withdraw all the money and pay whatever penalties and then whatever it does in terms of your tax liability for that year.

Re: Retirement account and buying car

although what I dont understand is why hoarding some stuff is exempt from zakat.

diamonds, rubies, precious metals other than gold and silver, painting of value, cars etc.

but thats a whole diff topic

Re: Retirement account and buying car

Peace Tariq Akhtar

That is very funny indeed! And funnier still is that Rebel X agrees with you.
To what end will people argue to support their stances. Had you put value and actual worth to your words then we could see exactly how you construct can provide money to the poor.

Ummm Let's see ...

If a bank "makes" money from someone's savings and lends it to a company to expand. Does that company get the money interest free? Nope ... So already the benefits are reducing. The company pays its rich people who manage it a lot of money and they are taxed and then it pays for all the material a portion of that is taxed and the other employees and they are taxed a small amount.

So far all these people are not poor ... they are working people. The tax money goes to the tax offices.

Civic buildings, civil servants and the likes councillors, are all paid from this money. A portion of that tax money goes to the poor. The people who coordinate the distribution are all paid from it. Then you get the people who need it from welfare. International benefits? The scope of taxes is mainly internal.

Governments are paid by large organisations such as IMF. On interest. To support their poor!
Cuts are taken by their governments and phew so on ...

Charity organisations ensure money goes to where it needs to go more effectively and there is no decanting process of portions of money being slowly clipped away.

It's easy enough to make your bold claim but it's quite hard to do the maths. I won't attempt it!

Taking money out of circulation is not the crux of the argument. Taking money out of ethical dynamics i.e. spending more to sell more then those who have the biggest buying power will spend more and those who spend more gain more selling power and so on.

Consumerism does not lessen the extents between the rich and poor it exploits it. To argue otherwise is futile.

Only when people say that they have enough and this extra cash could be given rather than spent then we have proper dynamics. That people will not waste wealth by buying too much ... buying too much will cause inflation. Inflation hurts the poor.

Re: Retirement account and buying car

^ psyah,

That doesn't makes sense and belies facts. I'll list following:

  1. You seem to be defining poor as those that don't have jobs. So isn't better that fewer people are jobless and so less poverty? Now, the money people save is what Becomes capital to start and sustain businesses that create jobs.

  2. You say consumerism exploits poor. Fine, so then why are you arguing for people to consume more and more? If people don't save, they have to spend it and that is hyper consumption.

  3. If you then argue that people shouldn't save or consume, then they have to abandon it or give it all away. I know of better way to kill a society than create a 30pct charity dependency.

You ask for some math - but your premise is so fundamentally convoluted that it is not math but common logic and a bit of open mindedness that iis necessary.

It is easy for me to just say, go ahead and don't save, what do I care. But I truly know you are wrong and if youngsters start believing this they are in such great trouble later in life.

You are a very calm pious person from your posts and therefore there is a tendency for youngsters to assign some credibility to what you write. That is why I think you have some responsibility to think abt their future and post accordingly.

Re: Retirement account and buying car

Peace Tariq Akhtar

Nice to get a passionate reply from you. Here it is ... The Islamic solution!

Interest free loans for people who want to start up new businesses.

Simple solution don't you think?

About hyper consumerism ... if people don't save, they have another option than spending. They can give it away.

And let me reiterate the muftis have given fatawa allowing the saving of money. I am not saying it is forbidden I'm only emphasising another aspect that of belief. Allah (SWT) provides to those who have means and to those who don't have means.

Re: Retirement account and buying car

^ simply giving away all money is wrong on three counts:

  1. The giver will lose motivation and start working producing earning less. That might be suited for lazy pre-medieval arabia but not now.

  2. The receiver community will expand since more and more money will be available from charity. That would. Create a huge welfare dependent population. Do you want to create a society of beggars so that some people can feel good giving them alms?

  3. Since under your scheme nobody would have saved for thEir retirement, as life expectancy increases, an increasingly smaller producing population has to support an ever expanding retired population. That shounld sound familiar to americans - what you say has been tried as social security and it is going bankrupt precisely because of life expectancy.

Again therefore, not saving and relying on charity / welfare may have worked in early centuries when life expectancy wasn't going up. It won't work now - it has been proven that social security will be bankrupt. Or severely stressed in 30 years!

Re: Retirement account and buying car

Peace Tariq Akhtar

I have nothing to say here. You are entitled to your beliefs. As I am mine. It is my belief that what you have said above will not come about, because society with capitalistic values will comptete for wealth but society with ethical values will compete for sacrifice and virtue. It has worked in the past, but people slowly began to get more materialistic.

One example of a person who gave everything was Abu Bakr Siddiq, he did not ruin his predicament he became the leader of the whole Islamic state.