Several of the participants are still very prominent on this Forum; I wonder if they still feel the same about the subject now as they did back then.
For example:
Pristine was fully supportive of his son “Not Saluting” the American flag and considered the US Oath of allegiance contrary to Islam.
I notice Pukka Desi is still in the States and he had promised to check out or leave the US at the earliest.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/001435.html
Non- response indicates that the position of the two named hasn't changed, or, they and their fellow fundamentalists would consider it an INSULT saluting the American Flag, then the 60,000 dollar question is:
WHy do they eat & live off the Kafirs/Infidels?
Any resident that has issues with the American Flag or the Oath of Allegiance doesn't deserve to be here in North America, PERIOD.
p.s to Admn/Moderator:
I had two reposts, the other called - Islam and enemies of Islam was deleted.
May I suggest that you delete the Quran as well because what you did not wish others to see exists in the Noble Quran in clear words.
You think the western scholars do not know what Fundamentalist Islam stands for?
It seems you are seeking for “revenge” and not looking for a proper discussion round. I don’t need to take this serious, period.
Poor boy
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif
*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir’aun!”
*
Ali_R comments:
"It seems you are seeking for "revenge" and not looking for a proper discussion round. I don't need to take this serious, period."
Hey Ali_R,
Saluting the American Flag or the Oath of Allegiance is not subject to discussion or negotiation! Either you are for it or you are not! If you are not then do Fundamentalist/Extremist Islam proud and leave America and kindly take your brothers with you.
pardon my ignorance, but can you please put up the words of the US 'Oath of Allegiance', as i don't know its words ... so then we can have a little look.
However, i'm assuming that it is patriotic or nationalistic in some way or another. If this is the case, then one ought to realise that nationalism is unIslaamic.
&peace
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
oh, and i er, i almost forgot. Dare i ask what you mean by "Fundamentalist/Extremist Islam "??
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
nations are based on nationality.
ultimate loyalty is to the country not religen.
Hold on a minute!
Keep your assumption away from me.
If you don’t know me, then don’t talk about me. Racism is below par…I’m outta here
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir’aun!”
*
Hasnain says:
'pardon my ignorance, but can you please put up the words of the US 'Oath of Allegiance', as i don't know its words ... so then we can have a little look.
However, i'm assuming that it is patriotic or nationalistic in some way or another. If this is the case, then one ought to realise that nationalism is unIslaamic."
Hasnain,
The words of the Oath of allegiance are discussed in the link provided in the first post.
The reason I bring this matter up is important because muslims are unsure or hesitant to disclose where their loyalty lies:
America (if this is where they live)
or,
Extremist/Fundamentalist Islam spearheaded by OBL & Taliban, JUI, JI, etc?
You mention that if the words of the US Oath of allegiance are patriaotic then you would consider it UnIslamic?
1)Could you elaborate on this and also relate your understanding to the fact that Islam forbids living in a Kafir country?
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
*nations are based on nationality.
ultimate loyalty is to the country not religen. *
[/quote]
thats one point of view, this is one of the reasons Muslims want "Islamic country/society" so that there would be no CONFLICT of interests.
For Hasnain:
I think in Oath of Allegiance, people have to consider US Constitution as "Supreme", which conflicts with our Islamic concept of Supreme being (Allah SWT is the ONLY supreme)... thats my knowledge on this issue.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
thats one point of view, this is one of the reasons Muslims want "Islamic country/society" so that there would be no CONFLICT of interests.<<
There are many countries(islamic) in the world where you don't have this conflict. If one considers the US oath conflicts with his/her beliefs then he/she should not become US citizen.
rvikz
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
nations are based on nationality.
ultimate loyalty is to the country not religen.
[/quote]
Yes, unfortunately this is the case today, but was not the case 1400 years ago. The earlier generations of Muslims were loyal to their Lord, whereas today, people have fooled themselves (through Shaytaan's deception of their minds) into believing that their lands belong to them - Nay! Verily it is Allaah to whom the dominion of the Heavens and the Earth belong.
faceup,
Forgive me for not having a look at the link ... but i've followed it through this time.
Trying to be frank, i would say that the loyalty should not lie with a nation, group or person. Islaam is not about the USA or the EU, neither is Islaam about OBL or the Taalibaan. But rather Islaam is about truth and justice. And Allaah is the Most Just. So, in short, loyalty should always lie with Allaah.
[quote]
1)Could you elaborate on this ...
[/quote]
Certainly! Would you like me to provide you with a whole lesson on 'The evils of nationalism'? Please let me know.
[quote]
... and also relate your understanding to the fact that Islam forbids living in a Kafir country?
[/quote]
Islaam does not forbid Muslims to live in a non-Muslim land, as long as certain conditions are fulfilled. However, if these conditions are not fulfilled, then you are correct, it is not permissible for the Muslim to do so. Would you also like to know these conditions? Again please let me know. Hmm ... I think one of the members once posted these conditions. Umm, let me see now, who was it? Umm ... it must have been a while back ... perhaps even 2 years. Uhh ... i er, i guess the old brain cells just aren't what they used to be huh? Hang on, or are they!? Aha! I think i have it ... GFQ? Yes, i think it was our good moderator herself, Wallaahu'Aalam.
Changez_like,
Hmm ... after having a quick read of the 'Oath' there does seem to be that question of sovereignty (apart from ceratain bad manners displayed on some of that post). All sovereignty is being renounced as Pristine pointed out. There does seem to be some element of shirk in there, as true sovereignty only belongs to Allaah. Unless of course 'Faceup' can enlighten us with the tafseer of the US 'Oath of allegiance' through the understanding of the scholars who wrote it.
&peace
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
[quote]
Originally posted by ChannMahi:
[BThere are many countries(islamic) in the world where you don't have this conflict. If one considers the US oath conflicts with his/her beliefs then he/she should not become US citizen. **
[/quote]
If MY countries is doing killing overseas, I should sit back, relax have some coffee and watch Mr. XXXX on TV. Is this what you mean?!? How selfish.
*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*
Ali, what does your rambling has to do with my post or with the current dicussion on Oath and religious beliefs?
Face Up
Before you try and lecture people into leaving the USA, please remember where your ancestors came from.
The real Americans are the Tribal Indians who were the first inhabitants of the country. And I'm sure you are not one of them. The rest of you all came through the Slave Trade, Holocaust, Invaders, Sentenced via a form of Punishment by your respective Colonys and Labour requirements. I forgot (illegal immigrants as well).
The issue of swearing Alleigance to a Flag or not is an individual choice. If you feel that this is not open for negotiation, then tear up your Constitution concerning Freedom of Choice. Lobby your Parliament who gave this right.
Who would Hindus stand by if India was being attacked by America.
Who would the Jews stand by if Israel was being attacked by America.
Who would Christians stand by if Italy (Vatican) was being attacked by America.
The first alleigance should be with your country of Citizenship, but what happens when your Whole way of Life, Faith and Ancestrial Home is at Risk?
What makes you more American than anyone else!!
NOTHING!!!!!!!
Majority of Muslim's allegiance is with Islam & teachings of Islam. Their allegiance is not decided by factors like Domicile. Wherever Islamic State is, that is the home of the muslims.
Having said this: In times of Confrontation like the present, to whom does the majority muslims owe their loyalty to?
If the answer is - Allah. Then surely, America is not based on Allah's laws but laws of Man/Mortals. However, the Jihadis are acting on the laws of Allah and this is where things get a little dicey vis a vis loyalty and allegiance of Fundamentalist muslims.
Sure, the christians & jews walked the same path of Fundamentalism not too long ago; but their practise have been "Reformed" out of such extremist interpretations.
[quote]
Originally posted by ChannMahi:
*Ali, what does your rambling has to do with my post or with the current dicussion on Oath and religious beliefs? *
[/quote]
Many ppl believe, that U.S. is a terrorist state and US oath is surely a burden on them. Even non muslims living in the states.
Got it?! Just giving you an idea of that there are even non muslims who see the U.S. oath of Allegiance as a conflict.
*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*
A day dreamer
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
…look at Israel. I think this is enough said.
*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir’aun!”
*
I don’t check Religion section all that often, so obviously missed this post earlier.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
You must be smoking something entirely undesirable. Read the post again. I never said any of these things.
I never mentioned my son in my posts and he is too young to be even considering saluting anything, let alone a US flag, and I never said US Oath of allegiance is unislamic. I just posed a question there, without offering any opinion on that matter. You guys ended up discussing it amongst yourself.
And in my second post I said that in US the school system is secular by law. Thats all.