Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
I wasn’t even responding to your post 
Thanx for the lecture nonetheless 
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
Thank you , come again 
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
So does it make sense ? more people need more money ? common sense innit , which is indeed not very much common thesedays :)
err no, in a genuiane federal system resource allocation focuses on poverty and factors in geographical variation. So in the US and India, New york and Mumbai contribute more than they get from their respective federal and central governments. Federalism implies that each federating unit is treated equally irrespective of population.
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
^^ .. Or receive nothing as in bb and gunja times..
Btw, in federalism, there are three or more tiers of taxes. I guess you should look up the US system before talking about something you don't know anything about.. :)
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
I was comparing federalism and not taxation powers..if you are going to criticise something I said at least pretend to know what I am talking about :)
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
Correction: Actually Musharraf approved 29billion Rs (not 4 billion) World Mayor: Niamthullah Khan - Mayor of Karachi 2005
for development of Karachi… and if you read the same link it shows that Karachi generates 65% of the Federal revenue 
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
I was comparing federalism and not taxation powers..if you are going to criticise something I said at least pretend to know what I am talking about :)
So what was the reason for bringing in federalism if it wasn't your intent to discuss about taxes?
Read:
[quote]
So in the US and India, New york and Mumbai contribute more than they get from their respective federal and central governments. Federalism implies that each federating unit is treated equally irrespective of population.
[/quote]
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
Anyway Bugti has few positive developmental contributions from his 2+ years as both governor and Chief minister, however if we work on the assumption that he was interested in developing things..development projects usually take time to mature. Musharraf had few projects to his credit in his first two years in office.
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
^Outside of giving the Baloch total autonomy, no matter what the govt were to do, nothing would be enough as everything is long term.
Baloch simply dont have the experience and level of training to reform themselves in the short term.
Also, Baloch leadership is really cut from the same bush. They have a vested intrest in seeing things remain the same, just as those in the other provinces.
Give them more funding and more autonomy and what guarantee is their that they will do the right thing and undertake the reforms that theie people need?
Even Bugti, despite his sincerity, and his bleeding heart nationlism was still a Nawab... They have ruled their people for centuries with an iron fist. What incentive would he have had to change things? He is the same as any feudal leader.
The sad thing is that they turned this two bit local autocrat into a nationalist hero...
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
Baloch simply dont have the experience and level of training to reform themselves in the short term.
I agree there is an interesting argument about capacity building to be had, in both the provinces and the local governments. A similar argument was made about the arabs in the early days of the oil boom.
Give them more funding and more autonomy and what guarantee is their that they will do the right thing and undertake the reforms that theie people need?...
to be honest thats like me saying PP : you just won the 100 million lottery, but your relations stop you from claiming it because they don't think they you are mature enough to spend it? By extension a similar argument could be used to say the local gov system should not have been allowed because they lack a system to collect and spend revenue.
Even Bugti, despite his sincerity, and his bleeding heart nationlism was still a Nawab... They have ruled their people for centuries with an iron fist. What incentive would he have had to change things? He is the same as any feudal leader. The sad thing is that they turned this two bit local autocrat into a nationalist hero...
Bugtis sincerity to the "baloch cause" was always suspect in the eyes of many Baloch nationalists. However while I agree the sardar culture was and is a social impediment to Baloch progress, in both a provincial and national context if you look at Pakistan. You have to remember feudals are generally not rebels, radicals or revolutionaries, there primary preference is to preserve their holdings. If you look at the major Feudals in Pakistan in all provinces (whether tribal or biradri or landowners), they almost always gravitate to whoever is in power. So if you pick Sindh or Southern Punjab and name the biggest feudals and then ask where they are they will inevitably be with the PML (and probably thinking of defecting soon! :D). Bugti, mengal and marri are exceptions to the feudal rule and not examples.
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
Well, there is no way that we could simply leave the Baloch to themselves... I agree the have every right over their resources and their land, but the reailty is that Pakistan relies heavily on those resources... Where those resources go is a seperate debate, but eventually, in whatever diluted form they take, the economic benefit that is garnished from these resources does return to the provinces.
So I dont know if the Lottery analogy can apply here. Its well known that many lottery winners destroy themselves when they suddenly become rich, one guy even commited suicide after winning. We just simply cant risk allowing the Baloch to implode. And that there is the dilema, how do you build up the capacity of the province without harming national intrest?
Perhaps what they need is massive spending on education but I dont know... The Baloch militants dont seem to be in the mood to wait for long term benefits... Meanwhile, they destroy whatever infrastructure they do have and make it even more difficult for development to take place.
Bugti had a vested intrest in having this system continue... I mean this man was literaly a criminal... He was famous for murdering his first man before he was old enough to drive. I know a Captain in the Army who has dealt with his men and he tells me that for these Bugti tribesmen its their Nawab and then Allah (maybe he exagerated). But the point is that this sytem would never survive in true democracy... So ofcourse this pseudo democracy was perfect for Bugti... There were reports on how the Nawab was actively involved in undermining democracy in his own region..
And as for his nationalism, he ofcourse has much to gain from a Balochistan that has a far greater control of resources... The govt eating away at Baloch resources is a direct attack on the Nwabs and their purse strings... Or am I wrong?
So he may not have been a feudal, but he was an autocratic dictator.. Which isnt very different from a feudal. Only difference is that he motivated by different things.
Its also interesting to note... In an article in dawn written by Shahid Javed Burki, who was involved in the govt in mid 90's, Burki says that he tried very hard to impliment a land or agriculture type tax... The most resistance he said came from certain individuals in Sindh and Balochistan who were large land owners...
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
[QUOTE]
And that there is the dilema, how do you build up the capacity of the province without harming national intrest?
[/QUOTE]
Genuine, un-engineered Democracy.
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
Autonomy and independence are two different things, giving the Baloch the ability to sell gas at market rates would not effect Pakistans economy, it would probably improve distribution and enrich balochistan at the same time.
How does empowering a people harm national interest? I’d say the present situation harms national interest. I doubt the Baloch nationalist movement would exist if there was provincial autonomy. After all in a federal system, the constituent units benefit from the system.
Its a standard modus ope***** of insurgencies to attack infrastructure that can be used against them, it’s classically because the people of that region feel no sense of ownership over the development. In NGOese you’d call it the lack of involvement of local stakeholders.
The fact that bugti in the 1920’s or 30’s killed someone according to tribal law is not a surprise, but that people still do it is one..
take a look at this link if you think things have somehow improved for the better with his death.
Not really Bugti was getting a nominal sum of money from the gas fields, as I said feudals rarely benefit from challenging the status quo.
In that respect I totally agree with you, and it’s where he had the most in common with Musharraf 
The agricultural tax was eventually imposed by Nawaz Sharif in 1997, the caretaker government he was a part off are essentially weak because they lack legitimacy.
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
^Chalo... lets hope some degree of wisdom is used in future dealing with the Baloch, whenever that will be...
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
Teddy Bear???!!!!????
LOL!!!
Okay, and I'm a Cabbage Patch Doll.
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
What did you expect from person who has batman in his avator?
Btw, isn’t the new batman movie about fighting “terrorists” .. 
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
See another side of story : Mehmood Khan Achakzai Speech regarding Bugti Killing
= = =!!!
Re: Remembering Bugti - Tribal chief or a teddy bear?
Achakzai has gotten more eloquent since the last time I heard him speak almost 10 years ago.