Re: Religion teaches morality
If you get a good and clear chance of stealing someone’s money, why would you not steal that money?
Do you really need a reason NOT to steal money? Some of us dont feel entitled to things that do not belong to us. Simple.
Re: Religion teaches morality
duplicate..
Re: Religion teaches morality
I did go and check that thread. It was insiduous, IMHO, of you to bring up animals in the context of discussing homosexuals. I quoted you there. And mentioned it was very "spiritual".
You have to know gays are being marginalized by being compared to animals. To now hide behind a technicality rather than being honest and upfront about it is, shall we say, unethical.
Since you questioned my ethics, I believe I am entitled to show it is the other way around.
My comments was in response to those who say there is no real standard and consenus on moral values. That implies there is no limit for human when getting pleasure on anything which is disguesting and disrespectful to humanity.
we are human being, we have to have standards and limits.
[QUOTE]
When you open a thread implying one has to be religious to be moral, you are implying if one is not religious, one cannot be moral. To me, this shows bigotry and discrimination against athiests. And I believe it is ETHICAL to show the immorality in the premise of this thread.
I actually look forward to you being truly spiritual and tolerant. Insulting gays and athiests is not the path to getting there. I don't care what religion you follow.
[/QUOTE]
No where i implied athiests are immoral, rather i said people(religious and non-religious) act morally cuz of religious moral teaching prevailing in our society.
For your kind information, athiests dont mind this subject of debate, they give a mathematical arguement, can be explained latter.
If I being religious act immorally then i go agaisnt religious moral teachings. But topic at hand is religion taught us morallity. Without being a believer, how can you convince me act morally?
Re: Religion teaches morality
If I was buying something from you, would you lie about the price, quality, and other details of the product? No, if you have some ethics. But this morality is not human nature, people didn't always have these ethics. Anyone remember the state of the merchants back in the day? They were so deceitful that Prophet saw said "The traders are wicked people". Someone misunderstood him and thought that the actual profession of trade is prohibited but Prophet saw clarified himself and said no it's because the merchants are dishonest and deceptive in their dealings and they employ ruthless tactics such as falsely swearing to God just to sell their products. So this goes to show that those people didn't think there was anything wrong with what they were doing, that it was simply the normal way of doing trade. There's a verse in the Quran specifically for the merchants, asking them to be honest. And that's really how people became aware of the immoral and unethical behaviour, through Quran and Hadith, otherwise why would they have bothered changing anything about themselves? It was religion that taught them morality and people were not equally ethical previously. Otherwise what a waste of 23 years, why did Allah have to send us the Quran if we're such know-it-alls anyway. What we call common sense today, such as the general business ethics, was not always common sense to people and this understanding only came to them with religion.
Re: Religion teaches morality
PS: These merchants ended up playing a huge role in spreading Islam around the globe and this is documented in a lot of detail in history books. They led by example, people were impressed with the honesty with which the Muslim traders did business and they ended up converting to Islam after learning about the religion through the merchants.
Re: Religion teaches morality
^^:k: exactly
Re: Religion teaches morality
I was about to post following thing.
even, today in the document of contractual agreement between two organizations, noone can show me the moral part. We have hundred of examples where one company sue others on very minor issue.
Re: Religion teaches morality
Today some people argue that there are thousands of people who act morally and ethically and that is not part religious practices.** I believe that religion taught humankind morality **so they act morally and ethically even today. Today you may claim that people act morally and ethically without being religious but all this is because religion has/had been teaching human being morality for years.
Before you claim that morality was/is possible without religion, answer the following statement. You pass by a small child drowning in a shallow pond and you are the only one around. If you pick up the child, she will survive and your pants will be ruined.
If you choose to save that child, justify why?
p.s. Answer to the point.
No where i implied athiests are immoral, rather i said people(religious and non-religious) act morally cuz of religious moral teaching prevailing in our society.
In post 1, there is an implication that religion is a pre-requisite to morality. Thus one can reasonably conclude if one is not religious, one is immoral.
I think I am having genuine difficulty in understanding your position. So I will respectfully withdraw from this discussion.
Re: Religion teaches morality
Yes people existed before Abrahamic religions but who can claim that they were not follower of any other religion and/or were not believers?
Are you suggesting that belief in Thor, or Horus, or Zeus, is valid? In that case, you're undermining the entire premise of Abrahamic religions. Morality obviously precedes modern religions, and if previous religions were false and man made, this means that morality was man made.
If I was buying something from you, would you lie about the price, quality, and other details of the product? No, if you have some ethics. But this morality is not human nature, people didn't always have these ethics. Anyone remember the state of the merchants back in the day? They were so deceitful that Prophet saw said "The traders are wicked people". Someone misunderstood him and thought that the actual profession of trade is prohibited but Prophet saw clarified himself and said no it's because the merchants are dishonest and deceptive in their dealings and they employ ruthless tactics such as falsely swearing to God just to sell their products. So this goes to show that those people didn't think there was anything wrong with what they were doing, that it was simply the normal way of doing trade. There's a verse in the Quran specifically for the merchants, asking them to be honest. And that's really how people became aware of the immoral and unethical behaviour, through Quran and Hadith, otherwise why would they have bothered changing anything about themselves? It was religion that taught them morality and people were not equally ethical previously. Otherwise what a waste of 23 years, why did Allah have to send us the Quran if we're such know-it-alls anyway. What we call common sense today, such as the general business ethics, was not always common sense to people and this understanding only came to them with religion.
Marking up the price of your product is the entire nature of economics. You charge what the market will pay. That Apple makes the iPhone for around $200, but sells it for $700 is not unethical, it's business. If you're referring to people knowingly selling faulty products, then yes, that's unethical, but this existed before religion, and continues to exist with religion. This example proves nothing.
Now, did Islam expect more civil behaviour from its followers than the standards of the time? In some cases yes, but such examples are also found in other parts of the world, and have nothing to do with Islam. For example, Buddhism is not a religion, it is simply following the teachings of a man, yet those teachings demand behaviour that is far more compassionate than common human nature. These teachings are clearly man made but compelled Ashoka to build a very peaceful and prosperous kingdom.
I think people like to attribute morality to religion because their own desires are harmful and selfish. Some people are far more capable of compassion than others. Look at the debate in Life1 about whether gays should be avoided. Some people can find compassion for those that commit sins, while others see nothing wrong with ostracizing them. Religion forces less empathic people to be civil, so they attribute this higher standard of "good" to religion, when in reality, there have always been humans with great capacity for empathy, justice, and equality.
Re: Religion teaches morality
You don't have to be a believer in religion, Ghost, to have the heart to acknowledge that it does teach people good things. And that's the simple question being asked here; whether or not religion teaches morality. You weren't born with all the ethics in the world.. your parents, your teachers, your society taught you a lot and religion is simply another source for learning.
Re: Religion teaches morality
You don't have to be a believer in religion, Ghost, to have the heart to acknowledge that it does teach people good things. And that's the simple question being asked here; whether or not religion teaches morality. You weren't born with all the ethics in the world.. your parents, your teachers, your society taught you a lot and religion is simply another source for learning.
The original premise was that humanity's morals come from religion. I believe this is false as morality existed before religion.
If you're arguing that religion can teach morals, then yes, perhaps that's possible, but we can never know whether a person is "good" because of religion or because of their nature, so I won't argue against that. I think religion teaches (or in my cynical view, forces) people who would otherwise be immoral to behave properly, but we still see people acting against what their religion teaches. Furthermore, we see great variation in interpretation of religion, some people choose harsher interpretations than others. Is that not human nature seeping through? That is what I was referring to earlier: we all have different capacities for compassion, which in turn shapes our morality, and religion is just a lens through which we apply our own biases. These biases are determined by both nature and nurture, i.e. morality exists outside of religion.
Re: Religion teaches morality
If you get a good and clear chance of stealing someone’s money, why would you not steal that money?
Lol thats funny logic. Just like religion there are laws for reason...to keep order in a society.
[quote]
Religion is based primarily upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly as the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the place that the churches in all these centuries have made it.
[/quote]
Re: Religion teaches morality
Today some people argue that there are thousands of people who act morally and ethically and that is not part religious practices.** I believe that religion taught humankind morality **so they act morally and ethically even today. Today you may claim that people act morally and ethically without being religious but all this is because religion has/had been teaching human being morality for years.
Before you claim that morality was/is possible without religion, answer the following statement. You pass by a small child drowning in a shallow pond and you are the only one around. If you pick up the child, she will survive and your pants will be ruined.
If you choose to save that child, justify why?
p.s. Answer to the point.
You don't have to be a believer in religion, Ghost, to have the heart to acknowledge that it does teach people good things. And that's the simple question being asked here; whether or not religion teaches morality. You weren't born with all the ethics in the world.. your parents, your teachers, your society taught you a lot and religion is simply another source for learning.
Religion teaches people good things. But that is NOT the simple question bring asked here. It is bring stated that morality is not possible without religion.
Re: Religion teaches morality
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/science/20moral.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Gotta love sociobiology. Tht stuff is mad fun.
Anyways, this topic is too vague in mi opinion. What is religion, morality, and even man. Things need to laid out beforehand.
I would say it’s hard for a “complete” sense of morality to be hardwired into us…you know all those pesky gray areas. That’s where religion and/or society (and/or philosophy…and/or Michael Jordan) have played a part. I’m not going to suggest humans at the base (sans religion) are entirely immoral.
Interesting read.
Re: Religion teaches morality
The original premise was that humanity's morals come from religion. I believe this is false as morality existed before religion.
If you're arguing that religion can teach morals, then yes, perhaps that's possible, but we can never know whether a person is "good" because of religion or because of their nature, so I won't argue against that. I think religion teaches (or in my cynical view, forces) people who would otherwise be immoral to behave properly, but we still see people acting against what their religion teaches. Furthermore, we see great variation in interpretation of religion, some people choose harsher interpretations than others. Is that not human nature seeping through? That is what I was referring to earlier: we all have different capacities for compassion, which in turn shapes our morality, and religion is just a lens through which we apply our own biases. These biases are determined by both nature and nurture, i.e. morality exists outside of religion.
Then we're pretty much in agreement. Of course morality was always there because Allah swt has made us capable of both good and bad. Remember, Prophet saw didn't know anything about religion up until he was 40 years old. But still, throughout his life as a merchant, he was a moral person. He was known as Al-Amin (the trustworthy) and Al-Sadiq (the truthful) and the Quraysh used to consult him as an arbitrator. And this was years before his prophecy was declared so this goes to show that even without religion, even during times when immorality was at an all time high, that some good people still existed. But you cannot say that the society at large was perfectly fine and there was no need for religion. Pre-Islamic Makkah was anything but moral. Humans have a habit of going astray, hence the need for several reminders through several prophets and scriptures. Do you think all those merchants suddenly grew a conscience on their own and started doing trade honestly just like that because of their good nature? Or was it religion that guided them back to the right path? And since you agree that yes, religion can teach people morals then we're on the same page. This in no way means that disbelievers in religion are immoral.
Re: Religion teaches morality
Are you suggesting that belief in Thor, or Horus, or Zeus, is valid? In that case, you're undermining the entire premise of Abrahamic religions. Morality obviously precedes modern religions, and if previous religions were false and man made, this means that morality was man made.
Marking up the price of your product is the entire nature of economics. You charge what the market will pay. That Apple makes the iPhone for around $200, but sells it for $700 is not unethical, it's business. If you're referring to people knowingly selling faulty products, then yes, that's unethical, but this existed before religion, and continues to exist with religion. This example proves nothing.
Now, did Islam expect more civil behaviour from its followers than the standards of the time? In some cases yes, but such examples are also found in other parts of the world, and have nothing to do with Islam. For example, Buddhism is not a religion, it is simply following the teachings of a man, yet those teachings demand behaviour that is far more compassionate than common human nature. These teachings are clearly man made but compelled Ashoka to build a very peaceful and prosperous kingdom.
I think people like to attribute morality to religion because their own desires are harmful and selfish. Some people are far more capable of compassion than others. Look at the debate in Life1 about whether gays should be avoided. Some people can find compassion for those that commit sins, while others see nothing wrong with ostracizing them. Religion forces less empathic people to be civil, so they attribute this higher standard of "good" to religion, when in reality, there have always been humans with great capacity for empathy, justice, and equality.
There were about
124,000 Prophets, 25 with name are mentioned in Quran. 5 Prophets out of 25 mentioned in Quran came before Hazrat Ibrahim (A.S). Most of the religions were true, obviously would have been sent in its original form. Maybe later on distorted and corrupted by it follower. And it is illogical to assume that some follower had amended the scripture to include the morality part.
So we cant just decide which religion was corupted to which extent.
The concept like budhism is mix of different religious belief. To be accurate, Buddhism is a religion and Buddhists are worshiper, just check the wikipedia!
Re: Religion teaches morality
original premise is, religion is the only and ultimate source of morality be it abrahamic religion or other religion Allah sent upon humanity. Some of guy here are always up for rational arguments when it comes to prove existence of God. But this time i can see how you guys are being deluded by "i believe this is false", or "that is true".
Re: Religion teaches morality
In post 1, there is an implication that religion is a pre-requisite to morality. Thus one can reasonably conclude if one is not religious, one is immoral.
I think I am having genuine difficulty in understanding your position. So I will respectfully withdraw from this discussion.
both posts imply religion is source of morality. You are free to prove it otherwise. Deal with it man, want to see your rational argumentation skills!
Re: Religion teaches morality
Then we're pretty much in agreement. Of course morality was always there because Allah swt has made us capable of both good and bad. Remember, Prophet saw didn't know anything about religion up until he was 40 years old. But still, throughout his life as a merchant, he was a moral person. He was known as Al-Amin (the trustworthy) and Al-Sadiq (the truthful) and the Quraysh used to consult him as an arbitrator. And this was years before his prophecy was declared so this goes to show that even without religion, even during times when immorality was at an all time high, that some good people still existed. But you cannot say that the society at large was perfectly fine and there was no need for religion. Pre-Islamic Makkah was anything but moral. Humans have a habit of going astray, hence the need for several reminders through several prophets and scriptures. Do you think all those merchants suddenly grew a conscience on their own and started doing trade honestly just like that because of their good nature? Or was it religion that guided them back to the right path? And since you agree that yes, religion can teach people morals then we're on the same page. This in no way means that disbelievers in religion are immoral.
most of us already know but i want to add. Our holy Prophet (s.a.w) was the member of nobel and prestigious family, banu hashim, the caretakers of Makkah built by Ibrahim (A.S)