Re: Religion teaches morality
yeah.. we get to see religion taught morality in action every day. some of the most ruthless killers today think they are doing god's work.
Re: Religion teaches morality
I know its going to be circular logic..
Finally we agree on something. Did one of us just become less spiritual, or the other more spiritual?
Re: Religion teaches morality
guys, would reply you all. For now, you just tell me the morality framework (if anx) provided by non-beleivers to humanity
Re: Religion teaches morality
guys, would reply you all. For now, you just tell me the morality framework (if anx) provided by non-beleivers to humanity
How about asking a question in simple language? Morality framework? What is that even supposed to mean?
Re: Religion teaches morality
^guidelines and principles to follow when making a decision morally.
Re: Religion teaches morality
punjabi ka muhavara yaad a giya. 100% fit hy 
Re: Religion teaches morality
guys, would reply you all. For now, you just tell me the morality framework (if anx) provided by non-beleivers to humanity
1) By humanity, do you mean only those who are heterosexuals? Since some here opined homosexuals are like animals?
2) By non believers what do you mean? Non believers in bigotry? Non believers in the concept that athiests and homosexuals are immoral? Non believers in the notion that one book or one historical figure or the puranas have ALL the answers?
Can you provide a framework?
Re: Religion teaches morality
There are certain things that are considered immoral by everyone regardless of belief or religion
Rape
Murder
Incest
Child Abuse
Theft/Robbery
Re: Religion teaches morality
If one claims that morality is possible without religion then he must be fair and also state that immorality is possible without religion as well.
obviously. and who is denying that? same way immorality is possible with religion.
Re: Religion teaches morality
Of course morality is possible without religion. Vast empires, with laws, existed before Abrahamic religions. They helped each other and built lives together. Obviously they weren't hell bent on individualistic desires, with no concern for the community, else they would still be tribal nomads.
Why would you save a child? Because it's in our nature. It's in your best interest to do what's best for yourself, while doing what's best for the tribe (your community). If you decide to ignore the tribe entirely then you will get outcast, and 50,000 years ago, surviving on your own was pretty much a death sentence. It's the same reason some animals stick together.
Re: Religion teaches morality
Not every religion defines morality for it's adherents only, there are religions that preach morality to all mankind as well.
Well yes, but I distinguish between what people think and how we think others should think and behave. People with universal beliefs does not imply those beliefs are universally held.
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It is debatable that we have no universal consensus on moral values.
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It takes but a simple counter example...we can perhaps agree to one or two values as being universal, but then it should be pretty easy to think of a few that people won't agree on.
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You are yet to answer the question said above, I have few more, but I would like you first explain the axiomatic belief.
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Yes, I would save the child...it ties into empathy and sympathy. It would be a visceral response, not one of standing there and debating the moral imperative of the act.
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Another question, if someone do wrong to you, why would you forgive him?
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I don't think I necessarily would...it depends on what was done. Forgiveness is perhaps done for selfish reasons....it may be out of my control to prosecute, punish or avenge the act. So one way to deal with it is to accept the act, and move on with life. Forgiveness, or at least the connotation I'm familiar with, gives a nice moral facade to that.
Re: Religion teaches morality
I know its going to be circular logic. you just give me the reason, why a non-beleiver will save that child. if you say that it depends on natural instincts then i must say it is not morality.
Do you consider morality to originate within man's soul? Or do you consider man to be a brutish animal otherwise,
that should be the question
If instead of religion you say tribalism, or spirituality then yes it is hard to argue either or; every single adult unless completely outcast has grown up conditioned with concepts related to religion/spirtuality.
But even a completely 'wild' human still knows love, and there are genetic reasons to save a child, and to do good. Humans rely on each other for survival, even today what if your parents said
Chul Fer Sher Aa, gulleych sit dho, aapi muj da dhod labh lave gaa.
Then would you be here?
--
What is morality vs instinct and randomness?
Imo and you should just save the child. End of story. A non-sensical topic because actions are better than words.
If you are contemplating not doing that; either you're a coward, or an animal and both should be baked in a tandoor and then drowned in the same place. :)
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There is reading a situation, going for greater good, etc but also a time to act.
For example, I saw a guy probably getting illegally arrested for driving with no insurance a few days ago, I could have stopped, filmed, etc. but I know Canada Police are not dilayr so he'll live.
I thought best way to help, is continue work to spread truth about law, and bring down tyrant government.
Another time, I stopped under pain of arrest when a local cop was verbally abusing a woman and threatening to pull her out of her car and beat her.
Maybe I would have cranked him, if he did that maybe I wouldn't.
I was in my mid-teens then, so who knows..
VJKVJF
Re: Religion teaches morality
Today some people argue that there are thousands of people who act morally and ethically and that is not part religious practices.** I believe that religion taught humankind morality **so they act morally and ethically even today. Today you may claim that people act morally and ethically without being religious but all this is because religion has/had been teaching human being morality for years.
Before you claim that morality was/is possible without religion, answer the following statement. You pass by a small child drowning in a shallow pond and you are the only one around. If you pick up the child, she will survive and your pants will be ruined.
If you choose to save that child, justify why?
p.s. Answer to the point.
People are inherently moral and ethical. religion is only there to reinforce those values. There are values that are simply hard wired into us from birth. Fairness and justice, these things have existed long before religion came along. Values so primordial that we are even beginning to appreciate this inherent morality in animals.
You save the child because its a drowning child. Where is the controversy? You dont have to be maulana maududi to figure that one out.
One could of course argue the point on the basis of the old if there is no religion (ie god), then who ultimately determines what is or isnt moral routine. But I think such debates are simply academic and in reality, quite pointless. Religion doesnt tell me that saving the child is moral, my conscience does that.
Re: Religion teaches morality
guys, would reply you all. For now, you just tell me the morality framework (if anx) provided by non-beleivers to humanity
You dont need a moral framework to determine whether you should or should not save a drowning child, even as you might have to sacrifice your pants. Basic morality is instinctive (except in those with certain mental conditions). Dont harm others willfully, be fair and just, these things even a 4 year old can figure out.
The problem arrises when society adds on multiple layers of complexity to the straight forward right or wrong situations our minds are accustomed to. For example, what if the child in your example were a young Hitler, and you knew he would grow up to murder Millions.. Would you still save him?
But even so, changing dynamics of society demand we employ logic and reason, something that is inherent in all people regardless of faith or lack there of. So long as we have our basic instinct to do right, we have the capacity to be moral with or without religion.
Re: Religion teaches morality
I don't understand the connection between Religion and Morality. Some here appear to be Religious. But they have opined homosexuals are like animals. That is being disrespectful and hurtful to a fellow human being. Not to mention insensitive. Hence immoral.
Goes to show one can be Religious and Immoral.
This is against the debate ethics. Don’t quote me out of context; I said “IF we do not have limits then what the difference between animals and us is?”. You missed the IF here. Furthermore, you should have quoted me there and clarified that you do have limits or so. This is against the debate ethics.
"If one claims that morality is possible without religion then he must be fair and also state that immorality is possible without religion as well."
Corollary.
If one claims that morality is possible with religion then he must be fair and also state that immorality is possible with religion as well.
Lolz, morality implies immorality :D
Re: Religion teaches morality
yeah.. we get to see religion taught morality in action every day. some of the most ruthless killers today think they are doing god's work.
Probably you are talking about Taliban. Yes they are wrong, but who made them wrong, another wrong that is non-religious forces. We can disagree with governance and social system of Taliban in Afghanistan, but how many people of their own country they killed during their rule? These non-religious forces lack morality and don’t bother to give moral justification themselves for grabbing the land of Palestinians and resources of Arab countries even by conspiring them against each other and fight each other. America back Israel on Palestine issue, Alqaeda fight against America due to this support to Israel. This issue brought war to our region. Dispute is mainly of land and resources.
Btw, topic at hand is morality is not possible without religion.
Re: Religion teaches morality
There are certain things that are considered immoral by everyone regardless of belief or religion
Rape Murder Incest Child Abuse Theft/Robbery
Guys you are missing the point, this world is/was under influence of religion and moral teachings of religion that is part of the environment we got. If you get a good and clear chance of stealing someone’s money, why would you not steal that money?
Re: Religion teaches morality
Of course morality is possible without religion. Vast empires, with laws, existed before Abrahamic religions. They helped each other and built lives together. Obviously they weren't hell bent on individualistic desires, with no concern for the community, else they would still be tribal nomads.
Yes people existed before Abrahamic religions but who can claim that they were not follower of any other religion and/or were not believers?
[QUOTE]
Why would you save a child? Because it's in our nature. It's in your best interest to do what's best for yourself, while doing what's best for the tribe (your community). If you decide to ignore the tribe entirely then you will get outcast, and 50,000 years ago, surviving on your own was pretty much a death sentence.
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If it is our nature then it is not morality. You answer the “why” but again you are taking morality as social interdependence and self-interest behavior. This thought teaches self interest, neither this behavior is morality nor it can bring moral sense among people. Morality is something like ‘to give’ not ‘give and take’. Practically, ‘Give and Take’ reasoning in not enough to make people act morally. If you are well off guy charity will not benefit you anything, why would you give charity? Why would you forgive someone, to forgive someone will not benefit you?
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It's the same reason some animals stick together.
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Sticking together of animals does not exhibit morality, it is interdependence.
Re: Religion teaches morality
This is against the debate ethics. Don’t quote me out of context; I said “IF we do not have limits then what the difference between animals and us is?”. You missed the IF here. Furthermore, you should have quoted me there and clarified that you do have limits or so. This is against the debate ethics.
Lolz, morality implies immorality :D
Please do not teach me about ethics. I did challenge you in that forum. In this forum I used some and did not refer directly to you. I chose not to refer to you. ( I did initially then edited it).
When you open a thread with the premise that one has to be religious to be moral, be ready to be presented with immoral comments you have made. That is one way to show you are religious AND immoral. Ergo your hypothesis is faulty.
Do not weasel your way out of what you said. You have referred to homosexuals as being no different than animals That my friend is unethical.
As for your last lolz comment I really don't know what you are saying.
Re: Religion teaches morality
I did go and check that thread. It was insiduous, IMHO, of you to bring up animals in the context of discussing homosexuals. I quoted you there. And mentioned it was very "spiritual".
You have to know gays are being marginalized by being compared to animals. To now hide behind a technicality rather than being honest and upfront about it is, shall we say, unethical.
Since you questioned my ethics, I believe I am entitled to show it is the other way around.
When you open a thread implying one has to be religious to be moral, you are implying if one is not religious, one cannot be moral. To me, this shows bigotry and discrimination against athiests. And I believe it is ETHICAL to show the immorality in the premise of this thread.
I actually look forward to you being truly spiritual and tolerant. Insulting gays and athiests is not the path to getting there. I don't care what religion you follow.