Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
I don't think you understood what I meant. Of course everyone is influenced by the community that they live in. And every community has a certain set of beliefs/values. If in the beginning there was no God and no religion, then how and why and where did all of this come from?
The figment of someone's imagination?
If religion helps to explain the unknown then what's so wicked about it?
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
That would be the creative human brain that has done a lot already...
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
You didn't understand what I am asking. The human brain cannot come up with random ideas that have no association with what is already in the brain.
I am indirectly hinting at the classical psychology debate of nature vs. nurture. Are humans born with a clean slate or is there something already "pre-programmed" in the brain.
The Islamic opinion is that some things are already pre-programmed (like worshipping one God), and that makes sense too because all infants know how to do certain things. For example infants already know how to suckle, they are not taught this.
Can you come up with an idea that is so far fetched that it is not related to anything that you have ever experienced in your life?
So I will ask the question again, if there is no God then where did this idea originally come from?
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
Can you come up with an idea that is so far fetched that it is not related to anything that you have ever experienced in your life?
So I will ask the question again, if there is no God then where did this idea originally come from?
Ok so u mean instincts ..... How could that prove the existence of God?
Concepts like worshiping one God is not pre-programmed... if that was the case we wouldnt have had people worshiping multiple gods at a time.
What you are referring to may be explained by the adoptability of living beings.
We have a tendency to adopt according to our surroundings which is a proven fact. Necessity is the mother of all inventions. That shows how we came to know what God really is all about. :)
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
Instinct is not the same thing as knowing something or being pre-programmed to do something. Taking the example Sher gave, do all babies have the same instinct to suckle when they are born. Instinct is something that will vary from person to person. Every newborn baby suckles without being taught.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
That's not what I mean. I'll elaborate.
The human brain generates ideas based on what is stored in the brain. And the storage in the brain comes from the fives senses: eyes, ears, nose, taste and touch. For example if you've never seen snow in your life then no matter how hard I try to explain it to you, you won't be able to comprehend it until you actually experience it using your five senses.
All ideas are in one way or another associated with one's past experiences and these experiences are a combination of the five senses. For example the idea for airplanes came from birds, someone saw a bird and came up with the idea of an airplane.
The problem here is that no one can really sense God using their five senses.
So if I claim that the idea of God is a man made idea, then where did this idea originate from?
I mean what is it that made man think up this idea of God when God never existed (ie. God cannot be seen, heard, felt, tasted or touched)?
And once this idea of God has been established, it's not hard to take it different places like worshipping more than one God, etc.
The above question is answered in Islam. As Muslims we believe that the natural disposition of mankind is to worship one God and it is the parents, the community, the surroundings which put ideas into childrens heads.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
And once this idea of God has been established, it's not hard to take it different places like worshipping more than one God, etc.
The above question is answered in Islam. As Muslims we believe that the natural disposition of mankind is to worship one God and it is the parents, the community, the surroundings which put ideas into childrens heads.
Like I already mentioned the idea of God is a result of man's creative mind.
I see your point and u r infact having a sensible argument unlike most people here.
If you say that the idea of God came across only by somebody somewhere exeperiencing his presence.. then I would argue How? Nobody can prove it can they? Do you belive in we humans have a creative mind and thats one of the reasons why our civilization has evolved so amazingly.. If we can think and make up so many things.. Why cant we make up God who doesnt make any sense at all! You said it yourself.. none of our senses can sense him.. Thus his existence is not sensible! :)
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
Hats off to you …
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
The natural disposition for man is to find answers to console him and ease his fears and worries. That manifested thousands of years ago with the worship of multipe dieties - usually taken from nature. Monotheism and the desire to worship one God came much later. The fear of the unknown and fear of death is inherent in man, what else could he do but come up with 'religion' to ease his fears? Many even entice man to envision a paradise full of physical pleasures which further eases him, especially effective for the simple-minded who are motivated by these things.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
I think you misunderstood Shers point. I hope I understood it though. Sher said we only come out with idea's in relation to things we have experienced through our five senses or comprehended using our five senses. And if God's direct existence cannot be comprehended using our five senses then, which experience is the idea of God based on. Or in other words the natural disposition or innate idea of God exists in us.
To answer who experienced God, I think it might be reasonable to say Adam did as the first human being created by God himself. This is something you will in every religion that acknowledges God. I think you are right to say humans have a creative mind and this is not in conflict with what Sher said however every creative idea in our minds is based on some experience, something we have senses using our five senses. For something in our midst that we cannot sense using our five senses has to be innate or naturally disposed.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
To answer who experienced God, I think it might be reasonable to say Adam did as the first human being created by God himself. This is something you will in every religion that acknowledges God. I think you are right to say humans have a creative mind and this is not in conflict with what Sher said however every creative idea in our minds is based on some experience, something we have senses using our five senses. For something in our midst that we cannot sense using our five senses has to be innate or naturally disposed.
ok so in other words.. with God not being experienced by our senses.. will it not be true to say that believing in God is sensless?
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
There are many theories people use use to explain whey their religion is valid. Many are good, solid theories. Saying that God has pre-disposed us to believe in him because man lacks imagination to come up with it on his own, is not one of them.
There are whole scientific fields of study based on things that can't be 'sensed'.
Have any of you ever used your imagination? If not, have you read any books, seen any movies, heard any poems where people come up with all kinds of imaginative ideas that do not necessarily rely on the five senses? I recommend you do. I'm sure there are some out there that you wouldn't consider haram that you can enjoy and open your minds.
Man has a natrual disposition to have answers to what worries him, not to worship the one God.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
I've been answering that question in my previous posts. I as a Muslim believe that it is the Fitrah (natural disposition) of mankind to believe in and worship one God. Meaning that we are born with this concept already in our brains.
This idea is not far fetched because infants already know certain things like suckling. That means that certain things are already in our heads when we are born. And one of those ideas is believing in one God.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
There are whole scientific fields of study based on things that can't be 'sensed'.
Have any of you ever used your imagination? If not, have you read any books, seen any movies, heard any poems where people come up with all kinds of imaginative ideas that do not necessarily rely on the five senses? I recommend you do. I'm sure there are some out there that you wouldn't consider haram that you can enjoy and open your minds.
Man has a natrual disposition to have answers to what worries him, not to worship the one God.
I kind of get the feeling that you know you are wrong but you don't want to admit it. And you are just avoiding the question.
Please re-read my previous posts and USResident's posts, and think about it yourself, that is if you are willing to understand.
I suggest that you go through some introductory psychology course as well, topics that should be of benefit are child psychology and cognitive psychology.
The purpose of me asking that question was not to get an answer because I know that no one has the answer. But it was so that everyone else would realize that there is no answer.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
There are whole scientific fields of study based on things that can't be 'sensed'.
Have any of you ever used your imagination? If not, have you read any books, seen any movies, heard any poems where people come up with all kinds of imaginative ideas that do not necessarily rely on the five senses? I recommend you do. I'm sure there are some out there that you wouldn't consider haram that you can enjoy and open your minds.
Man has a natrual disposition to have answers to what worries him, not to worship the one God.
An example of what you are talking about would be helpful.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
Please re-read my previous posts and USResident's posts, and think about it yourself, that is if you are willing to understand. I suggest that you go through some introductory psychology course as well, topics that should be of benefit are child psychology and cognitive psychology.
The purpose of me asking that question was not to get an answer because I know that no one has the answer. But it was so that everyone else would realize that there is no answer.
Thats a good one:D
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
Not at all. You said "If in the beginning there was no God and no religion, then how and why and where did all of this come from?" I say man doesn't need to be predisposed with religion in him - he is already predisposed to to think, solve problems, get answers and otherwise be comfortable. It is only natural that he would come up religion to solve some of these issues, particularly the spiritual ones like "what is the meaning of life", "how did we get here", "where do we go from here".
Thank you for the suggestion to study psychology, which I have. You just made an excellent example of man trying to solve problems that fall outside of our standard sensory perception. Something that you have implied is unique to our belief in religion.
IF we were predisposed to religion, why were all the primitive religions non-monotheistic? Seems bizarre God would have us believe in the Sun God thousands of years before monotheism was practiced.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
^What is your proof that polytheistic religions predated monotheistic religions?
There is ample prrof that polytheism can follow monotheism, like many a muslims/christians that started beleiving in various dieties etc.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
There would be no issues to solve if they did not exist somehow. Why would someone try to come up with solution to issues that do not exist or are not liable to happen as a future consequence of a existant problem.
If we were not pre-disposed with the notion of God, why would we try to solve it? You are saying we first come up with a solution then try to figure out a problem for it.
Re: Religion should have been a unifying factor
If we were not pre-disposed with the notion of God, why would we try to solve it? You are saying we first come up with a solution then try to figure out a problem for it.
The problem is man wants to know what is the meaning of life?", "how did we get here?", "where do we go from here?", "is this all there is"? That's why we try to solve it. Religion is the answer.