Chaan
I am not commenting on honesty...i just don't like to be called sleaze bag.
I agree she was being very honest.
You are making my mouth water with suggestion of home made fresh Koya...so when are you visiting your Pind to taste it...i have two Devali parties to go to...one tomorrow and other on saturday...we will have fireworks (courtsey Halloween). I am sure i will not get anything as tasty as your Khoa...
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited October 26, 2000).]
Rani, I know you will understand…
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
The point of Kohal’s response was that it is totally wrong for any muslim to make derogatory remarks about any other person irrespective of their religion…
I don’t think ( at least to my knowledge ) that she has ever encouraged or even participated in such slander. The verse from the Qu’ran was simply the manifestation of proof of the belief that Islam does not in any way endorse such backbiting. But many muslims knew this anyway… It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to find that this is what common sense also says. The reason why the Qur’an stresses upon it so much is beacause that it is a fundamental quality of a good muslim.
I would really like us to stay on this topic of the initial post in this thread. Please help us with this. I have posted a topic before “Concept of God in Hinduism” which I thought was an eventual failure because people simply did not want to stay on the topic. I would ask everybody for their kind cooperation with regard to discussing the topic at hand.
Thank you kindly.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?
[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited October 26, 2000).]
Rani.
First, you're calling me something that I do not even know the meaning of.
What is a Mullah anyhow? I've never heard of the word, and I don't know what it means, I hope you can shed light on this. I am assuming it's a degradtory attack on me. But, I will not bother with it, because I know quite well not to stoop to your level. I am quite disgraced in the sense having to know you're a Sikh. Sikhs should stick together, and have the utmost respect for each other, and even people of other religions. You seem to be a 'pick-fighter'. You will take all reply's offensively assuming they're meant to attack or disprove you. By calling me names, really just proves to everyone in this forum that even within a centered debate, you can not refrain from replying intelligently and without personal insults.
Have a nice day bro.
Arai
I am quite disgraced in the sense having to know you're a Sikh. Sikhs should stick together, and have the utmost respect for each other, and even people of other religions.
Coming from person who started many posts attacking me this is rich. I am not going to attack hindus the way you do because my religion or my value system doesn't allow me to do so. You think you are lucky to be born among christians and not hindus then you accuse me of picking on people. I bet Hindus feel lucky that you are not born among them. There are large number of Sikhs (Banta Singh is the another one on this forum who will disagree with you)who believe in the teachings of great Gurus and they don't hate other Indians the way you do.
uh- knock it off. face it, people are different. go figure how the world still spins round.
anyway- Pakiice. I'm in MD. thanx for the advice, I have tried that in the past, really, I had some good ideas too...but, I wasn't a part of the clique, wasn't well known in the community as much, they didn't really care for what I had to say (I got the impression that I was an outsider). So now, I just bow out. But Mashallah, I am glad all is going well in your area. I heard that Florida's myna group was doing well also a few years back. Just need to work on DC a bit more I suppose...try another route.
play on.
As long as Pakistan wil remain on the indias enemy's list & india in Pakistan's enemy list .therethe eye of Hindus.Here i'm being selectively dealing non muslim as hindu .(sikh,jain,etc, )
Admiral J G Nadkarni (retd)
The road to good neighbourliness
A few years after Independence, a Pakistani naval ship on her way to
Karachi, broke down off Bombay. Her call for assistance was promptly
answered by the Indian Navy and the vessel was towed into harbour. The
Navy had no problem repairing the ship as the naval dockyard had
refitted the ship many times before Independence. She was soon set right
and sent on her way to Karachi. The assistance rendered was much
appreciated by our neighbour. This, mind you, after we had fought the
first of our three wars with that country.
Those days have long passed. Today if a ship happens to break down
outside the other's harbour, it would be arrested a la Pueblo and the
crew incarcerated in jail as spies.
For nearly 15 years after Independence the two navies met annually for
Joint Exercises at Trincomalee (JET). These were sponsored by the Royal
Navy who were still around with their East Indies fleet based at
Trincomalee. The four-week joint exercise period included units from
most of the Commonwealth navies. Ships of the Indian and Pakistan navies
quite willingly served under each other's commands in antisubmarine,
convoy and replenishment exercises. Once in harbour, there was much
bonhomie and officers visited each others' ships. Will those days ever
return? Not in the near future.
Today the relations between the two neighbours, India and Pakistan, have
reached rock bottom. The two are not even talking to each other. The
rise of rabid fundamentalism in Pakistan and equally rabid Hindu bigotry
in India has made even a semblance of dialogue impossible. Nuclear
explosions by both countries, increased militancy in Kashmir, the Kargil
episode followed by the usual bout of patriotism and the military coup
in Pakistan has raised jingoism and rhetoric to such a pitch that both
countries appear closer to war than peace. Incidents such as the
shooting down of the Pakistani Atlantique, irrespective of who was in
the right, have further fuelled the antipathy.
The military too has been a victim of this political and religious
one-upmanship. There is little contact between the services on either
side. During the past 50 years, the Indian naval chief has officially
visited countries from Russia to Argentina and from South Korea to
Australia. Naval ships have also visited many countries. Even the
country described by one former chief of army staff as a 'bandicoot' and
by our present defence minister as our greatest threat -- China -- has
been visited by naval ships.
Yet, no chief has ever visited Pakistan and vice versa. Apart from that
one ship, no Pakistani naval ship has ever berthed in an Indian port and
vice versa. The Indian Navy will be holding an International Fleet
Review next year where more than 20 foreign naval ships are expected to
take their places in the review lines. The Pakistan Navy is not even
invited.
The two neighbours appear to be happy nursing their bruised egos and
feeding on their pride. And yet, there is so much to be gained in mutual
rapprochement, certainly in the maritime area. Here are a few areas
where cooperation rather than confrontation will be mutually beneficial
to each country.
Human life and its safety knows no political or religious boundaries.
Joint efforts to save human lives could be one area where cooperation is
possible between the countries. If a ship gets stranded at sea, would it
not be possible for either side to first launch an aerial search to
locate the ship and then send a rescue vessel to render humanitarian
assistance to the crew? Surely, an agreement to put into effect a joint
search and rescue organisation to save human lives could easily be
worked out? Or will we forever sulk like immature children and gloat
over our neighbour's misery when he is confronted with a disaster?
Anti-smuggling, anti-piracy, and anti-pollution measures offer another
area of cooperation. Once again, these are crimes against humanity and
there need not be any national, political or religious barriers when one
is combating them. Smuggling or pollution can affect both countries
equally. A major oil spill in Arabian Sea close to the coast is likely
to be equally disastrous to both countries and combating the disaster
jointly is likely to be far more effective. Apart from the social
consequences, drug smuggling affects the economy of each country and
jointmanship here will yield spectacular results.
The recent accident to the Russian nuclear submarine Kursk shows a third
area of cooperation. Both India and Pakistan, indeed many other
countries in the Indian Ocean, operate submarines. Yet, today neither
has a viable or up-to-date rescue system should, unfortunately, a
disaster strike. Operating submarines is an expensive business. Not only
is the submarine itself an expensive vessel, it also requires
sophisticated infrastructure. Not many countries can afford to maintain
highly efficient and modern rescue systems.
Neither is a private rescue system necessary. Many people own cars. Very
few have their personal garages and repair organisations. A collective
system for submarine rescue is one area of cooperation between the two
neighbours and may even be extended to other nations operating
submarines in the neighbourhood like Indonesia and Iran. These, of
course, would be small beginnings in what could eventually be a whole
spectrum of cooperation and building of trust between the two countries.
Impossible as they may seem in today's vitiated atmosphere, any
cooperation along these lines would only mark the first step along the
long uphill climb towards even more sensible understandings. The
possibilities are limitless, even within the narrow naval or military
arena. Once mutual confidence and trust is established, the next logical
step would be first the curtailment and eventually a mutual reduction of
conventional arms on both sides. Outlandish as this proposal may look at
present, it is not such a impossibility once saner minds prevail on both
sides.
Take naval forces for example. Both sides have in their inventory
surface ships and submarines which are nearly 30 years old. By no sense
of imagination can these be considered of any operational or even
training value. They just make up the numbers quoted in the Janes'
publications as well as the Military Balance. A large number of them are
ready for the scrap yard. They eat up unnecessary resources of men and
material without being of any use to man or beast. Why not make a virtue
of necessity? Eventually both sides could decide to scrap this worthless
lot and agree not to replace them. That could be the first step in
mutual arms reduction.
The ultimate and the most serious goal of each side could be some sort
of understanding regarding nuclear weapons. Today both countries are
bent on going along a path followed by the Cold War countries in the
sixties and seventies; carrying nuclear weapons to sea where they will
be immune from first strike. Nuclear hawks in each country will only be
satisfied when submarines with nuclear tipped missiles patrol off each
other's harbours. It will be done at mind boggling costs and is stated
to be the ultimate deterrent.
Even at the height of the Cold War better sense prevailed between the
two warriors. The United States and the Soviet Union decided to sit down
and work out some form of arms limitation. It was a long grind but
ultimately an agreement was reached.
History has shown us the truth in the oft quoted statement of Lord
Palmerston that there are no permanent friends or enemies, there are
only permanent interests. Britain and France, the bitterest of enemies
during the Napoleonic wars, are today the staunchest of trade partners.
So too are Britain and Germany, the United States and Japan, to quote
just some of the notable examples. Even after the magnitude of
destruction major wars have caused, these countries have resolved their
differences and in so doing, rebuilt their economies.
India and Pakistan find themselves in a similar situation. Yet, today
there is a far greater threat -- that of nuclear weapons. Both countries
have nuclear weapons in their arsenal and have shown the willingness to
use them if provoked. Who can say what will be the threshold of this
provocation? If the first steps towards cooperation and understanding
are not taken today, we can be certain that 20 years down the line the
populations of Bombay and Karachi will forever live under the perpetual
threat of a nuclear wipe-out.
Admiral J G Nadkarni (retd)
Rani.
In one of your posts. You claimed that I am limited to my knowledge of Sikhism due to the fact I was raised abroad.
Now, you made that personal attack on me, assuming that because I was born and raised out of India, that I must be automatically unintelligble of my roots. My friend, you've made a big mistake here. If I was, I would never take such a big interest in this forum to begin with.
In addition, the way I see Sikhs in India being treated in respect to politics. I would say, I would feel sorry for any of them. Sikhs really can't be Sikhs unless they're liberated. That is the whole purpose of the Khalsa, a fundamental Sikh principle. To be liberated, to fight
against oppression and injustice.
India has gone to it's lengths not just to oppress Sikhs in India, but even abroad.
Hence, Radio Khalistan in the US and in Vancouver, Canada. Whatever happened to that? From what I remember, according to every Punjabi newspaper, India requested the radio programme be shut down due to the fact it would cause retaliation and incite riots in India for the Khalistani movement, and people will "think of more things". Canada had disagreed to India's suggestion until India furthur added that it would tarnish ties between both Nations.
Now let me see. First, Hindu's will claim "no we don't oppress Sikhs", yet they're oppressing them in India, and are ripping their freedom of speech even abroad! And yes, Radio Khalistan was shut down, and everything was kept "hush hush" after that.
Now. How could I possibly want to live in a country who in their government look for every way to keep my mouth shut? And are going to the lengths to even do that when I'm not in India!!
I'll tell you straight-forward. India is a well-corrupted government, or shall we use the word Democracy. For the people of Punjab, and the Sikhs of Punjab it's only safe to be liberated. I don't completely follow the whole Khalistan movement, but a Punjab movement. In addition, I do respect when Sikhs fight against their oppressors, whether it be contradictory to my beliefs (atheism).
Good day.
Arai
[quote]
Originally posted by Zara:
Aapca: JazakAllah brother for your blessings.
I just wanted to clarify something in your post. I have learned that we are all born muslim, but it is the surroundings and environment that change us, so really I am just a revert.
[/quote]
*** You are absolutely right sister. EVERY ONE is born MUSLIM and sure you are a revert.***
**~~~Performace of good DEEDS avoids the evil ending.~~~
He, who advises for the GOOD, is similar (in rewards)to the doer of it.**
(Sahih Al-Jami 3797 & 3399 resp.)
Rani, Arai....
You are not even listening to me are you?
How do you think that makes me feel? I've already asked you nicely, but somehow I get the idea that you are both completely ignoring me.
They shoot partypoopers, don't they?
I know Mr. Party Guy,
it's like everyone's attention in this thread is being lost...which is frustrating..there's so much more it wrt quality which can be discussed..
Originally posted by arai:
**
Rani.
In one of your posts. You claimed that I am limited to my knowledge of Sikhism due to the fact I was raised abroad.**
No! Ur overall knowledge is shining through ur posts.
**
India has gone to it's lengths not just to oppress Sikhs in India, but even abroad.
Hence, Radio Khalistan in the US and in Vancouver, Canada. Whatever happened to that? From what I remember, according to every Punjabi newspaper, India requested the radio programme be shut down due to the fact it would cause retaliation and incite riots in India for the Khalistani movement, and people will "think of more things". Canada had disagreed to India's suggestion until India furthur added that it would tarnish ties between both Nations.**
India is opressing Sikhs because Radio Khalistan is shot down. And ur way of fighting 'oppression' is clear. The only sad thing u find with Air India bombing is that half victims were sikhs. If they were all Hindus, that was good. And unless such a tribe gets complete right to mouth hatred, India is not free enough.
Hehe…this is soooo funny!!
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/dixsi.gif
Rani, you’re calling arai a “mullah” and the poor guy doesnt even know the meaning of it!! He’s NOT Muslim, in case you haven’t noticed
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/disgust.gif
He’s right though. U r always looking to pick a fight.
And please get ur facts straight, our Prophets were sent to spread the word of ALLAH (SWT), NOT to act as intermediaries between humans and Allah!!!
Islam believes in a PERSONAL relationship between the INDIVIDUAL and ALLAH.
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) or any other prophets were sent to provide guidance…PERIOD. Its up to the individual himself/herself to establish a personal relationship with Allah. This is exactly why we do not have priests or bishops like the Christians to forgive our sins or communicate with God for us. You may claim to have all knowledge in the world but when it comes to Islam, ur views are utterly biased and based on popular opinion. No one can understand the real Islam unless they have thoroughly studied the Holy Qur’aan.
Dont try to tell us what we believe
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/disgust.gif
[This message has been edited by hk (edited October 28, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Partypooper:
**Rani, Arai....
You are not even listening to me are you?
How do you think that makes me feel? I've already asked you nicely, but somehow I get the idea that you are both completely ignoring me.
**
[/quote]
Some people here are on this forum solely to attack others, their beliefs and culture. Partypooper, i suggest you look for answers elsewhere, they wont contribute anything worthwhile anyway.
ZZ.
An attack on an Indian flight of over 300 people is really being easy on India in my opinion.
If you consider, over 1,000 Sikh's being slaughtered in their own holy city by Hindu's, just in 84.
If you ask me, if Indira Gandhi were to attack a large Mosque in India, alot more would have happened, I wouldn't be surprised, and really I wouldn't blame Muslims for retaliation, they have every right too. Muslims have bombed federal buildings, assasinated president/prime ministers, attacked US Ships, I can go on. And, for all good reasons too. Really, when a Sikh would do this, against it's Hindu's oppressors, who really are much like America to the Palestinians, I don't see the fault in it.
As for the USS Cole. I am saddened that the blasted ship didn't sink! At least the US would have lost a few billion dollars there, including jets.
There is no remorse for the death of oppressors. Simple as that.
Arai
Partypooper. Sorry, if I hadn't read your posts or replies. It seems in this forum, the only person who has interest in replying to my posts in Rani, or those who disagree. Therefore, honestly I am really looking forward to seeing them reply, and unfortunately overlook any other messages that may have directed torward me or the topic itself. But, if you could so kindly regard me to the post you're referring to, I will glady look into it, and share my thoughts.
Arai
arai,
I am talking about the post that started this thread. If you would like to comment on it then please do. Otherwise please take your converstaion with Rani and whoever disagrees with you and start another thread.
Please have consideration for others when you post something that is not immediately related to the topic of the thread.
What the heck, it's too late... I think this thread has been killed off anyhow. Another failure of a thread.
They shoot partypoopers, don't they?
Originally posted by arai:
**
ZZ.
An attack on an Indian flight of over 300 people is really being easy on India in my opinion.**
Thanks for being easy.
**
If you consider, over 1,000 Sikh's being slaughtered in their own holy city by Hindu's, just in 84.**
Well.. if innocent Hindus can be killed to avenge blue star, most of which werenot even indian citizens, innocent sikhs could be killed for killing indira gandhi. why one event is good and other bad.
If you ask me, if Indira Gandhi were to attack a large Mosque in India, alot more would have happened, I wouldn't be surprised, and really I wouldn't blame Muslims for retaliation, they have every right too. Muslims have bombed federal buildings, assasinated president/prime ministers, attacked US Ships, I can go on. And, for all good reasons too. Really, when a Sikh would do this, against it's Hindu's oppressors, who really are much like America to the Palestinians, I don't see the fault in it.
The opressed Sikhs are represented more than their population in armed and unarmed govt. jobs in India. There is not a single big post in India that Sikhs did not get except primeminister and manmohan is not ruled out yet for that. what discrimination? early after independence, india spent resources in bhakra nagal dam which fired punjab agriculture. otherwise does a udiya frmer work less hard than punjabi. it is just that his land is not irrigated. if a sikh succeed it is due to hard work according to khalistanis, and if he doesn't it is discrimination.
maharashtra gives 45% of revenue to India. has any marathi got to a post like, say president. people like ambedkar were definitely qualified. has money been spent on dams in maharashtra. nope. punjabs cornered positions of power. so much was faith that indira retained sikh bodyguards even after 'blue star'.
**
As for the USS Cole. I am saddened that the blasted ship didn't sink! At least the US would have lost a few billion dollars there, including jets.
There is no remorse for the death of oppressors. Simple as that.**
wasnt bhindranwala killing innocent hindus. journalists were killed. communists werer killed. BJP people were killed. congressman were killed. even rival akalis were killed. many of killed were sikhs. khushwant singh remained on hit list. he took the temple hostage and hid there. your canadian parents have not told this to u and in 85, u maybe 2-3 yrs old. so u dont know. who was responsible for blue star. bhindranwala. and canadian sikhs are putting indian sikhs in trouble by funding khalistanis.
recently u are claiming lotsa discrimination against sikhs in canada. how far is movement for making khalistan in canada come?
ZZ, you have your facts twisted completely.
First, Bindrawale was the only Sikh who would go against the injustice, and in addition you'll be surprised at one point he was a Indian government official for Punjab.
He remained in the Golden Temple district, and fought only within the complex.
As for Hindu's being killed. None in the Punjab region were slaughtered (in relation to the event). Of Delhi yes, because massive riots occured after Indira Gandhi was killed, and all Sikhs who lived in Delhi at the time were being BURNED alive by mobs.
Therefore, other stronger Sikh groups in Delhi fought back and killed Hindu's.
Nothing was happening to Hindu's PRIOR to Amritsar '84. Blue-Star was initiated, due to Indira's false belief of thinking a conspiracy and plot against the government was being made in the Golden Temple Complex, in addition , illegal weapons were being held there. (and also for her vengeance against the 'sell-out' Bindrawale)
In addition, Indira was a moron for having Sikh body guards, that is completely her fault, in addition. Three body guards NOT TWO were involved. Two were Sikh, one was Muslim. But for the sake of showing how revengeful sikhs are, only two of the body guards tend to be mentioned, although three were executed.
I am not going to continue with trying to prove to you how Sikhs were oppressed. It's self-evident, and only Hindu's want to deny this fact, if they weren't oppressed, they would be happy where they live now and wouldn't want their own nation, and the evidence that Sikhs and Hindu's in many areas don't get along is a sure factor, and there would have been no reason for the Air India bombing if there was no need for retaliation. Do you think Sikh's just destroy and kill people for NO REASON? Think logically my friend, there's a reason for everything.
Arai
Partypooper. My regrets if this conversation has gone way off the original thread.
But, the original thread does indicate relation with Non-muslims.
ie; Sikhs in relation to Hindu's, is the same as relation with Non-Muslims (without saying Non-Sikh) in my case.
Anyhow..
Arai
It has been a month since the last reply on this thread. But I was thinking whether there were any new thoughts on the subject of the first post in this thread. This seemed to be a very interesting topic for many of us, including me.
On the matter of calling some body a Kafir what do you think? Also are there any interesting experiences that you could possibly share with us? I suppose that this topic is heavily related to the field of Da'wah. Do you think that few/some/many non-Muslims have got the wrong idea of us Muslims?
They shoot partypoopers, don't they?