Rejectors of Ahadiths.

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Asalaam ualikum W’r W’b all;

So during the last few months or so we’ve seen a few rejectors of ahadiths popping their heads here and there, with some very valid points, ofcourse!

Anyhow, the purpose of the thread isn’t to discuss who’s right or wrong, since you guys possess the understanding and the knowledge and all that, and since we all know that debates have been held in the past with no reasonable outcome, I’d request a little favor of you guys:

Please provide details of your location, and we will try to find a local scholar in your area, set up a time for you to talk to them, and then you guys can provide us the transcript of your discussion. I find that debating with those who are not sufficient in knowledge is the way of the cowardly. A survey would definitely show that the average participator on the forums is not an Aalim, so why debate with us then?

To me, it seems that it takes no guts at all to debate and reject and do what not on the net, but since you guys are the followers of the truth, you guys would definitely not mind doing something a little braver, be our saviours and take this argument to a local level, debate with those who’re knowledgable, provide us a transcript- and if it seems to us that you have a valid point in opposition to an Aalim, we will consider you our saviours and be eternally grateful.

I’m hoping that PakistaniAbroad, Gandalf, filhaal, NeScio and all others with a strong opposition to ahadiths and their transmission will stop forward at this stage and take this as a serious way to prove they are indeed right, JazkAllahu Khairun Guys! :slight_smile:

2

Dear Mahiwal, and others
salaam to all,

first of all, what do you mean by a "scholar"?? someone who has a beard and a 'topi' on his head and says "allah akbar" every two minutes OR someone who has a PhD from harvard or someone who is a good debater!!
this is the problem with the whole muslim world!!people start refering to a certain aalim, pir, fakir, mullah, so-called scholars!! but remember they are also human and not APPOINTED by GOD!!

Who do you think you are to find for US a LOCAL SCHOLAR, when i visit the local mosque there are more than enough so-called scholars (often those in the first line during prayer). Do you have a list of criteria (probably from the hadith) according to which you are going to choose this scholar ??

the arguments that you (the hadith defenders have presented) and the arguments that we( hadith opponents) have presented, has made this discussion interesting and there is always something one can learn from others!! (EVEN if you do not agree with their point)

IF i would talk to them i would present the same evidence which i have presented to you
(PROOF from the QURAN!!) and they would present the same "AUTHENTIC" hadith which you all post!!AND in fact with whom ever i discuss this issue these are my argument which i have presented in different posts!!

REMEMBER anyone who can justify his claims with proof and sound rational arguments is a good debater and worthy opponent in a debate, and whether he/she claims to be scholar, pir , fakir, PhD holder or a simple down-to-earth guppie does not matter!!

3

Please keep your emotions under check and do not be so excited. Now then, I belive someone with ample knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah can be considered a scholar. Ample knowledge ofcourse does not mean enough knowledge to satisfy their own belief but also to understand the others’ beliefs. Oh, and a PhD from Harvard wouldn’t hurt either. Both can be good debators, point being, they have to have religious knowledge.

Reason for my post?

**

Dear hafeez,

That’s incorrect. I didn’t call the ahl as sunnah wal jamaat a creed based on falsehoods. I called ALL sects based on unverified accounts as creeds based on falsehoods.

I hope I’ve made myself clear

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Something as huge as this definitely demands recognition. One of you guys must debate with a reputable Aalim and save the Eeman of 80% of the Muslims. How the hell do you guys sleep knowing that there are fellow muslims living in a false state of Eeman?!

Also, discussions on this board have led to no-where. You can keep being an idiot and repeat those arguments, or do something which’ll get us all a definite answer.

Without making it too complex, up for it or no?

[This message has been edited by Mahiwal (edited July 12, 2002).]

4

sorry, i have everything under control!!

Mahiwal:
One of you guys must debate with a reputable Aalim and save the Eeman
of 80% of the Muslims. How the hell do you guys sleep knowing that there are fellow muslims living in a false state of Eeman?!

Muhiwal:
discussions on this board have led to no-where.

filhaal:
it is not about having sleepless nights. The humiliating position in which muslims all over the world find themselves in is in my opinion due to lack of debate on all kinds of levels !!
the point is not who is right and who is wrong, the point is exchanging views and discussing topics which seem straightforward. My point on this forum is not to stray people away from Islam!!

Do you think i was born with this knowledge!! in the past islam seemed like a checklist on which there was no debate possible and one had to follow to be a good muslim. lately, i have been studying different articles on hadith (pro. and contra.) and quran. that is when i started questioning different issues that seemed straightforward.
I not some sort of a savior!! every day i am learning new insight (also here on gupshup)

last but not the least, i do not think that discussing these things on gupshup is futile!!on the contrary, people living on totally different places on this planet can (and must) exchange their views, is n't that great!!

AS i said before i would not mind discuuing these topic with others!!

5

filhaal; discussing is fine. But when you start making claims, the whole perspective changes. Also, refering to words as "hadithis" and such is definitely not something I take easily to.

So either, admit your views are flawed and that you wish to learn and expand, or if you want to make claims do it in a reputable place. Seems fair enough?

6

dear Mahiwal,

first of all, calling someone "hadithis" is not the worst thing i have read on this forum!! But if you mind it, then i have to think of something else.........

mahiwal:
So either, admit your views are flawed and that you wish to learn and expand, or if you want to make claims do it in a reputable
place. Seems fair enough?

filhaal:
what you are suggesting is that YOU know the truth!! that is the whole problem with you hadith......s (ups sorry!!)
who says that you are right, even if the majority of the muslims and their so-called scholar say it!!
i have presented my vies and also quoted ayat from the quran to support these views!! iearning and expanding one's knowledge is for both sides!!
you have not presented convincing evidence that my views are flawed!!

7

Mahiwal, if I'm understanding correctly:

suppose one of us has this discussion and your scholar is convinced. and suppose that the next day he issues a statement in favour of our point of view. Are you saying that based on only this statement you are willing to change your whole religion!????? Is your religion this weak, that merely on the basis of this single discussion and a supposed statement made by the scholar you are willing to change your religion????
Look, we have given arguments and you have given arguments. Now it is upto YOU to decide for YOURSELF what YOU are going to do with these various arguments/viewpoints...............why let a scholar make the decision for YOU, if you can make the decision yourself??????

8

Ahh- the attack of the Anti-hadit.. s (oops!). One at a time dear kids, let Mahiwal take a little breather.

Filhaal:

Hadithis isn't the worst thing you've heard on the forum, true. But it is against the spirit of Islam to assign names and sects, bet you must've read it since you believe in the Quran?

I never have and never will claim that I'm perfect or that I know the truth. But you see, I've studied this matter in depth, since at one time I did not believe in the authenticity or need of ahadiths either, and I've understood the weakness in saying that the Quran has to be followed by itself, in itself. With regards to your comment about following the majority, you see two heads are better than one. If 80% of the muslims say something and I find it more logical than what you say, then why would I keep making an idiot out of myself by rebelling?

Oh and btw, please read:

[quote]

Allâh has surely blessed the believers with His favor when He raised in their midst a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His verses and makes them pure and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, while they were, earlier in open error. (3:164)

He (Allâh) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allâh, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. (62:2)

[/quote]

Comments?

NeScio:

Yar lets not play with words. I will not let a scholar decidee my belief, but you see here's how it is: A scholar knows more than me. He has read more books, more sources of history. If I know one hadiths, he knows hundred. I will believe in him since he has more knowledge. Key-word, he's knowledgable. Our understanding right now is not even a drop in the ocean, we've studied engineering or medical for years, so we have a good understanding of those, suppose you spent that much time on religion, wouldn't you have a good understanding?

If a scholar agrees with your views, and shows and makes me understand why; I will give up my false ways in a fraction of a breath.

[This message has been edited by Mahiwal (edited July 15, 2002).]

9

dear mahiwal,

i agree (there is something that we agree upon, but as you will understand in the heat of the moment......) calling names is not the greatest of things!! but there are also several remarks from the hadith-defenders (better??) such as calling us WESTENERS!!?? (so rejecting or doubting means that i have become a westener!! my point is to see the true spirit of ISLAM) so there are prejudices on both sides, you see!!

my basic objection against the hadith is that it should not be considered as an extension of a divine revelation!! ok as a historical document it can give insight!!

10

Repeating myself:

Allâh has surely blessed the believers with His favor when He raised in their midst a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His verses and makes them pure and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, while they were, earlier in open error. (3:164)

He (Allâh) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allâh, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. (62:2)

Comments?

11

you do not seem to understand!!
i have never had any objection against the prophet and his teachings, they are fully in accordance with the quran!!
only thing i am saying is that the account of these teachings (hadith) is nmade by humans and thus not free of error!!!

quoting these ayat shows that YOU do not understand my point!! i totally agree with these ayat!!

12

We will move onto the authenticity soon enough, point being the mission of the Prophet(SAWW) wasn't to deliver the message alone, but teach it as well. When you accept that, we'll move on!

13

once again, i agree, that the mission of the Prophet (saw) was not only to deliver the message but also to teach it!!

but still even if the mission of the prophet (saw) was to only deliver the message, i have a feeling that you seem to be offended!!isn't delivering the message of GOD a very high status (or even better: the highest status for a human being) in its own right??!!!!!!

but i agree that the Prophet came also to teach the message!!

14

Good kid!
Now keep a watch on the other thread, and we will deal with the authenticity of what the Prophet(PBUH) taught.

15

you are so naive!!

mahiwal:
authenticity of what the Prophet(PBUH) taught

the issue is not the AUTHENCITY of what the prophet (saw) taught, but the account in the hadith made by other people about these teachings!!! you understand that!!

in none of my post have i disputed the teaching of the Prophet (saw) and YET YOU ARE PREOCCUPIED IN SHOWING THAT I DOUBT THE AUTHENICITY OF THE PROPHET's TEACHINGS!! NOO.
HOWEVER I DOUBT THE ACCOUNTS made by mere mortals OF HIS TEACHINGS!!

look who his judging with pre-conceived notions!!

16

you are so naive!!

mahiwal:
authenticity of what the Prophet(PBUH) taught

the issue is not the AUTHENCITY of what the prophet (saw) taught, but the account in the hadith made by other people about these teachings!!! you understand that!!

in none of my post have i disputed the teaching of the Prophet (saw) and YET YOU ARE PREOCCUPIED IN SHOWING THAT I DOUBT THE AUTHENICITY OF THE PROPHET's TEACHINGS!! NOO.
HOWEVER I DOUBT THE ACCOUNTS made by mere mortals OF HIS TEACHINGS!!

look who his judging with pre-conceived notions!!

17

Yes, but the only form we have of what the Prophet(SAWW) taught is in the form of Quran or Ahadiths, and you're convinced about the authenticity of Quran, anyone with a slight understanding would know that I was talking about the authenticity of Ahadiths.

Maybe we can talk about this once you're 20+? I mean your thinking and replies dont depict maturity.

18

keep your personal remarks to yourself dear hadithi.

if you mean the authencity of the hadith , then WHY DO YOU NOT WRITE THAT INSTEAD OF calling it THE AUTHENCITY OF THE PROPHET's teaching (and therby causing confusion)
i understand your point, but there might be others on this forum, who might get confused!!!

i might be below 20 (???) but YOU even being +20 do not show any maturity at all!!
i being below 20 am calling names, you however +20 and wise still calling names!! (shabaash dear sire, or may-be uncle sahib)

i have so far read only these kinds of immature remarks from you, nowhere have you presented convincing arguments!!!

19

A lullaby and off to bed it is for you, dear kid!
That was a joke by the way. Please state where I have shown immaturity by using examples from what I've written, also, please state your conclusive argument in your next reply, since just like you, I cant seem to spot your argument.

Peace!

20

mahiwal
: A lullaby and off to bed it is for you, dear kid

a joke?? oh, what i said about hadi.... was also a JOKE, got it!!!

filhaal:
again a very mature answer!!when you started this thread i thought may-be we could have a sincere discussion like grownups (that's why i stopped calling you hadi...),but you are very stubborn (DEETH). even after saying that these kinds of remarks are not nice you still go on!! very mature indeed!!!!

i might not have given a conclusive answer , but nor have you. but there are two things which are two things which are important to start a serious discussion:
1. be clear what you say. the above example shows that you are not clear in saying what you want!! and even worse afterwards, saying that the other misinterpreted it!!
2. you continue to call names!!!

in both of these you have failed to show maturity.

a philosopher once said:
"growing old is mandatory,
growing up is optional"

certainly in the second you have lagged behind!!!