Re: references for ijma
i was talking of Ijma of four imams khanbabax!!! which is considered in the chain of decision making after Quran & Hadith and before Ijtehad by sunnies. It was that Ijma because of which Hudood ordinance is its last form was called Islamic. It was Islamic as per Ijma not Quran & Hadith.
so if today majority of people in Pakistan vote for exclusion of rape from Huddood (as done by the present regime) will this be the new Islamic interpretation of Hudood.
Re: references for ijma
We are talking about the Imja of 4 Imams who are not just lay men like us, and if all 4 Imams agreed on something, that means all the scholars of that time also agreed on it. And it also means there was no difference between the Sahabas on that matter. There is no way out of it. How can Ummah have Ijma on something contrary to the Ijma on 4 Imams when majority of the Ummah follow 4 Imama.s
Re: references for ijma
Ijma of which 4 imams, we know thye are no laymen like us. But how did they agree. I really doubt. Coz none of the 4 imams were contempraries.
If majority follows a madhab, what are we suppose to do, this ayah of the glorius Quran should suffice you. Well this topic about 4 imams is been debated n no. of times. But there is no final answer.
006.116YUSUFALI: Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.
PICKTHAL: If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah's way. They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess.
SHAKIR: And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie.
Re: references for ijma
Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik were contempraries. And Imam Shafi and Imam Ahmed were contempraries. For they to be agree, they dont have to be on the same time. What it means is that they there was Ijma on that even before 4 Imam but it was not written in book forms and these 4 Imams documented it. They dont have to be from the same period to agree on some matter, as the Imams and scholars who came latter didnt differ from the early ones.
And the ayats you have quoted are not related to the topic of Ijma.
Re: references for ijma
Are you sure i know they are contempraries but come o ut with a dates. Contempraries well, i would want you to be much more detailed infact we have beaten this topic to death.
I want to know how long will you support your topic. Well understand this brother before jumping into this debate,
1) Did any of the Imams say follow me and thats my Madhab(The Ijma is follow a Madhab but not blindly if there is stronger evidence compared to what you have been following, then its obligatory to follow that)
2) Whose taqleed did the 4 imams do, well Imam Abu Hanifa was born in 80A.H., Imam Shafi was born when Imam Abu Hanifa expired thats 150AH, so who did the people follow then.
3) The 4 Madhabs say that sab Barhaq hain, thats they are towards the truth then according to Prophet authentic hadith only the sect which follows the Prophet and the companions will go to heaven and the rest 72 will go to hell.
Before commenting the opinions of the scholars vary a lot for instance
*Imam Abu Hanifa after surah fatiha you shouldnt tell ameen but Imam Shafi calls it a bidah the difference is between earth and sky. *
The Prophet did tell in one fo the hadith Kullu Bidahtin Dalala wa Kullu dalalatin finar. *That every innovation leads you astray and every astray leads you to hell fire. *
Now i want you to comment, then the rest i will come back after your rebuttal.
Re: references for ijma
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Are you sure i know they are contempraries but come o ut with a dates. Contempraries well, i would want you to be much more detailed infact we have beaten this topic to death.
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Imam Abu Hanfi was born in 80 and Imam Malik in 96, and when Imam Abu Hanfi would go for Hajj and also visit Madina, he would also meet Imam Malik. There are many incidents if you read the biographies of these great Imams. Also Imam Abu Hanifa did 50 Hajjs so they met many times. And Imam Shafi and Imam Ahmed were of the same time and they also met many times as also recorded in the history books.
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1) Did any of the Imams say follow me and thats my Madhab(The Ijma is follow a Madhab but not blindly if there is stronger evidence compared to what you have been following, then its obligatory to follow that)
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There are same questions people ask and have been answered. You are not asking anything new. Imama didnt have to say follow me because people were already following them even in their lives. Like Imam Abu Hanfi was in Iraq and people of Iraq were following his fatwas in everything even during his lifetime. He didnt have to go outside in marketlplace and beg people to follow him. l0l. There is Ijma to follow follow a madhab and its called taqleed meaning for a layman, he has to follow blindly. Thats how it was for 13 hundres years until the time of British when new fintnss started and people some people stopped following any madhab. Imams of madhab knew all the hadees so its stupid to say that when you see a hadees contrary to your Imam then leave the madhab. It just means you have came across few hadees but there are many hadees that support the view of the Imam that you have not come across.
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Whose taqleed did the 4 imams do, well Imam Abu Hanifa was born in 80A.H., Imam Shafi was born when Imam Abu Hanifa expired thats 150AH, so who did the people follow then.
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They were mujtahids so they didnt do taqleed. Untill the 13th century there were only 2 kind of people. Mujtahids and Muqalids. Mujtahids can derive the rules directly and Muqalids follow them.
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The 4 Madhabs say that sab Barhaq hain, thats they are towards the truth then according to Prophet authentic hadith only the sect which follows the Prophet and the companions will go to heaven and the rest 72 will go to hell.
Before commenting the opinions of the scholars vary a lot for instance
*Imam Abu Hanifa after surah fatiha you shouldnt tell ameen but Imam Shafi calls it a bidah the difference is between earth and sky. *
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All four madhabs are right but you follow one. And understand that only reason there is difference between the madhabs is because there was difference between the Sahabas. Imams were either students of Sahabas or grand-students of Sahabas. Different Sahabas went to different part of the World and whatever they taught there, people of that area also followed that.
And Imams had difference on small fiqhi issues not on aqeeda and haram, halal issues.
You are wrong to say that Imam Abu Hanifa says dont say ameen. According to Imam Abu Hanifa, both are correct but its more reward to say it slowly in heart. Imam Shafi says both are correct but its better and more reward to say it loud. Now you are making up stuff?
Re: references for ijma
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Imam Abu Hanfi was born in 80 and Imam Malik in 96, and when Imam Abu Hanfi would go for Hajj and also visit Madina, he would also meet Imam Malik. There are many incidents if you read the biographies of these great Imams. Also Imam Abu Hanifa did 50 Hajjs so they met many times. And Imam Shafi and Imam Ahmed were of the same time and they also met many times as also recorded in the history books.
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Dont get emotional, can you get me some evidence regarding this, i would be really grateful. I am talking about meeting between Malik and Hanifa and the meeting between shafi and ahmed.
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There are same questions people ask and have been answered. You are not asking anything new. Imama didnt have to say follow me because people were already following them even in their lives. Like Imam Abu Hanfi was in Iraq and people of Iraq were following his fatwas in everything even during his lifetime. He didnt have to go outside in marketlplace and beg people to follow him. l0l. There is Ijma to follow follow a madhab and its called taqleed meaning for a layman, he has to follow blindly. Thats how it was for 13 hundres years until the time of British when new fintnss started and people some people stopped following any madhab. Imams of madhab knew all the hadees so its stupid to say that when you see a hadees contrary to your Imam then leave the madhab. It just means you have came across few hadees but there are many hadees that support the view of the Imam that you have not come across.
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Really, can you tell me since when Imam Abu Hanifa started taking interest in Islam, and can you come across any one hadeeth which supporst your point.
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They were mujtahids so they didnt do taqleed. Untill the 13th century there were only 2 kind of people. Mujtahids and Muqalids. Mujtahids can derive the rules directly and Muqalids follow them.
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Whose taqleed did mujtahid do, how cna you say they did not do taqleed they did taqleed
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All four madhabs are right but you follow one. And understand that only reason there is difference between the madhabs is because there was difference between the Sahabas. Imams were either students of Sahabas or grand-students of Sahabas. Different Sahabas went to different part of the World and whatever they taught there, people of that area also followed that.
And Imams had difference on small fiqhi issues not on aqeeda and haram, halal issues.
You are wrong to say that Imam Abu Hanifa says dont say ameen. According to Imam Abu Hanifa, both are correct but its more reward to say it slowly in heart. Imam Shafi says both are correct but its better and more reward to say it loud. Now you are making up stuff.
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Can you support your evidence from Noorul Anwar and support your point regarding Ameen. Well if this is the case please do visit madrasas and ask them can we say ameen loudly.
Get me the evidence of Imam Hanifa and Imam Shafi, again would be grateful thanks.
Sahaba differed fine, but you are telling on fiqhi issues right what can be those fiqhi issues can you throw some light on it.
Because here we are talkinga about innovations and the way the Madhabs are followed and again whats the ijma for it.
So you mean to say some sahabas said it in there heart and some said it softly claiming hte Haddeeth of Prophet in Bukhari wrong. Well go ah ead i am waiting for your evidences.
Re: references for ijma
Good scholarly discussion SOA and Khanbabax.
Anyway khanbabax why doors of ijtehad were closed after 13th century and why something which has been ijtehaded (sorry for grammar) once can't be done again according to changed circumstances? who made the decision to close the ijtehad gates & when? (ijtehad of Imams not sahabas, i mean an imam was a scholar of his time and a scholar of today should not hold lesser status then him, why we make him bigger scholar and today's a lesser)
Re: references for ijma
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Dont get emotional, can you get me some evidence regarding this, i would be really grateful. I am talking about meeting between Malik and Hanifa and the meeting between shafi and ahmed.
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There are many incidents that I have read and also heard in many speeches and whenever I get these links, I shall PM you. No one has deny that.
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Really, can you tell me since when Imam Abu Hanifa started taking interest in Islam, and can you come across any one hadeeth which supporst your point.
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He was a business man and once he was passing by a great scholar of Kufa, who mistook Imam Abu Hanfi for 1 of his students. Later on he told Imam Abu Hanifa. that he should start studying Fiqh under him. So thats how it all started.
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Whose taqleed did mujtahid do, how cna you say they did not do taqleed they did taqleed
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Mujtahids dont do taqleed, they can derive their own conclusions from Quran and Sunnah.
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Can you support your evidence from Noorul Anwar and support your point regarding Ameen. Well if this is the case please do visit madrasas and ask them can we say ameen loudly.
Get me the evidence of Imam Hanifa and Imam Shafi, again would be grateful thanks.
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Why would I visit a madrassa when I alrady know the position of all 4 madhabs on this issue. I know scholars of different madhabs and this is their position. Its all about which is more superior. You said it was biddah accorindg to Imam Shafi so shouldnt the proof of burden be on you? But I would highly recommed you to read this book called fiqh al Iman by Mufti Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf on all these issues. So many of your questions will be answered.
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Sahaba differed fine, but you are telling on fiqhi issues right what can be those fiqhi issues can you throw some light on it.
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These same issues like saying Ameen loud or slowly, where to put hands in Salat, should they put on above navel or below. Also the matter on rafal yadeen etc etc.
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So you mean to say some sahabas said it in there heart and some said it softly claiming hte Haddeeth of Prophet in Bukhari wrong. Well go ah ead i am waiting for your evidences.
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Again what hadees you are talking about? That says say ameen with the angels? Thats the hadees Hanafis use because can you hear the angels say ameen? No oyu cant, so same way we say it slowly. There are many hadees on this issue, and you just took 1 hadees and reached your own conclusion.
Re: references for ijma
Anyway khanbabax why doors of ijtehad were closed after 13th century and why something which has been ijtehaded (sorry for grammar) once can't be done again according to changed circumstances? who made the decision to close the ijtehad gates & when?
Gates of ijtehad are not closed. But on things there are Ijma, that is closed matter. Samething is when something is clear cut in Quran and Sunnah, you cant do ijtehad on that. When there is Ijma, that means there is no 2nd opinion. There was no difference betweeh the Sahabas on that issue. But Ijtehad can be done on new issues that arrive and on which no one has did ijtehad before. Also not every tom and harry has the right to do ijtehad, not even every scholar can do it. You have to be really expert in your field.
Re: references for ijma
Ok, but this tantamount to giving the opinions of imams equal status as of Quran & Hadith (on issue which has not been discussed by Quran & Hadith). Isn't it
Re: references for ijma
What Ijma on Ijtehad?
Ijma is like the Ijma on thousands or scholars and millions of people, its not just 1 people. And Prophet s.a.w said my Ummah cant agree on falsehood.
And when Mujtahid do Ijtehad, he has to make sure that his Ijtehad doesnt contradict any ayat of Quran or Sunnah or Ijma.
Re: references for ijma
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We are talking about the Imja of 4 Imams who are not just lay men like us, and if all 4 Imams agreed on something, that means all the scholars of that time also agreed on it. And it also means there was no difference between the Sahabas on that matter. There is no way out of it. How can Ummah have Ijma on something contrary to the Ijma on 4 Imams when majority of the Ummah follow 4 Imama.s
Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik were contempraries. And Imam Shafi and Imam Ahmed were contempraries. For they to be agree, they dont have to be on the same time. What it means is that they there was Ijma on that even before 4 Imam but it was not written in book forms and these 4 Imams documented it. They dont have to be from the same period to agree on some matter, as the Imams and scholars who came latter didnt differ from the early ones.
And the ayats you have quoted are not related to the topic of Ijma.
Imam Abu Hanfi was born in 80 and Imam Malik in 96, and when Imam Abu Hanfi would go for Hajj and also visit Madina, he would also meet Imam Malik. There are many incidents if you read the biographies of these great Imams. Also Imam Abu Hanifa did 50 Hajjs so they met many times. And Imam Shafi and Imam Ahmed were of the same time and they also met many times as also recorded in the history books.
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Tell me which one is right, initially you told me ijma of 4 scholars, then in your rest of the statements you mention and from historic proof that 2 pairs of imam existed differently. No how could you say they did not differ, well you havent read the book of Imam Abu Hanifa then and they have differed on thousands of fiqh issues which is ofcourse man made. I rest this case to you after that.
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There are many incidents that I have read and also heard in many speeches and whenever I get these links, I shall PM you. No one has deny that.
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Ok fine, waiting for it well that should be fine so you mean to say sihah sitta should be left aside and only the madhab should be followed.
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Mujtahids dont do taqleed, they can derive their own conclusions from Quran and Sunnah.
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Agreed with your definition but it should be told completely.Infact Mujtahids did taqleed of the Prophet, and that intends we should also do taqleed of the Prophet.
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Why would I visit a madrassa when I alrady know the position of all 4 madhabs on this issue. I know scholars of different madhabs and this is their position. Its all about which is more superior. You said it was biddah accorindg to Imam Shafi so shouldnt the proof of burden be on you? But I would highly recommed you to read this book called fiqh al Iman by Mufti Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf on all these issues. So many of your questions will be answered.
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Ok you mean to go against the Prophet hadeeth again, Prophet told that only one sect will go to heaven who follow the Prophet and the sahaba karam, the rest 72 to hell so decide if all the 4 are towards the truth, who will go to the hell and who will go to heaven.
Remember i have provided you with eg, and remeber the madhabs vary to such an extent regarding surah fatiha, saying Allaah u akbar, ablution, praying style, what more y ou want you mean to say all the sahabas had different style of Praying.
Please dont tell me that Prophet had different style of Praying which will again throw sahih bukhari and sahih muslim out of the blanket of proving it wrong.
Have you read Ibn Kathir tafsir, read it and read the tafsir of Surah Al fatiha. Well i will give you other hadith
1) Abu Hanifa - Ablution should be done any woman except wife, mother and sister touch you.
Imam Shafi - Ablution to be done if any woman touches you except mom. Well tell me is this hadith not agains the hadith of the Prophet is this not bidah, dont tell me no, I have been an Hanifi for 23 years of my life before bulling around.
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These same issues like saying Ameen loud or slowly, where to put hands in Salat, should they put on above navel or below. Also the matter on rafal yadeen etc etc
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Saying ameen slowly is a clear cut against, hadith of the Prophet please do some research on the Sahih bukhari which was told the best book after the Quran by the method of ijma and accordingly Ijma cant agree on falsehood.So decide what you want.
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Again what hadees you are talking about? That says say ameen with the angels? Thats the hadees Hanafis use because can you hear the angels say ameen? No oyu cant, so same way we say it slowly. There are many hadees on this issue, and you just took 1 hadees and reached your own conclusion.
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Dear brother cool down, dont you think when I am debating with you, i have enough evidence before picking this topic.
This is not the hadeeth i am talking about even if I am talking about this hadeeth who the heck is any man on earth to contradict the Prophet if he is told Ameen loudly then follow it dont make your decision and think logically as they can hear softly so let that be there.
The hadeeth i am mentioning is wrt the whold of the Mosque and the entire area could hear Ameen. Remember one thing first we should comprehend and gain knowledge about what Prophet did and rest is left to you. Please read Fiqh us sunnah, which is the best book in terms of comparative madhab and hadeeth and the more stronger evidence, hadeeth was document by Syed sabiq and the it is again well respect according to the Ijma.
Re: references for ijma
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Tell me which one is right, initially you told me ijma of 4 scholars, then in your rest of the statements you mention and from historic proof that 2 pairs of imam existed differently. No how could you say they did not differ, well you havent read the book of Imam Abu Hanifa then and they have differed on thousands of fiqh issues which is ofcourse man made. I rest this case to you after that.
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Ok you are like going in circles, so what if Imams were in different period of times? Who said they didnt differ on fiqhi issues, I even gave you examplies lol. We were talking about Ijma, on things that Sahaba didnt differ, also scholars who came after them didnt differ.
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Ok fine, waiting for it well that should be fine so you mean to say sihah sitta should be left aside and only the madhab should be followed.
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Tell me this, when was Bukhari compiled? It was compiled after 4 Imams passed away. So tell me what were people before Bukhari doing? They were not following hadees? Surely they were, just those hadees mihgt not have been written in book form then. 4 Imams knew hundred of thousands of hadees by heart. Even Imam Bukari was a Shafi, after knowing so many hadees he still followed a madhab, so who are we to now follow a madhab.
4 Imams didnt need Imam Bukharo to know hadees, they were before him and theirchain of narration was even smaller then Imam Bukhari. Imam Abu Hanifa even heard hadees from the Sahabas,He met the Sahabas and learned directly from them. Imam Bukhari came 250 years after.
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Ok you mean to go against the Prophet hadeeth again, Prophet told that only one sect will go to heaven who follow the Prophet and the sahaba karam, the rest 72 to hell so decide if all the 4 are towards the truth, who will go to the hell and who will go to heaven.
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So you dont even kow the differenece between a madhab and a sect? Prophet s.a.w said there will be 73 sects and not 73 madhabs. 4 madhabs of make up Ahl Sunnah wal Jamat. And as I said these 4 Imams were either students of Sahabas or grand students of Sahabas, so now who is following the Sahabas?
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Remember i have provided you with eg, and remeber the madhabs vary to such an extent regarding surah fatiha, saying Allaah u akbar, ablution, praying style, what more y ou want you mean to say all the sahabas had different style of Praying.
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Yes and and I told you to buy that book fiqh al imam and in there you will find different hadees. Also buy the book differences of imams by shaikh zakaraia, alot of your questions will be answered.
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Please dont tell me that Prophet had different style of Praying which will again throw sahih bukhari and sahih muslim out of the blanket of proving it wrong.
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During different times, Prophet prayed different. So which ever Sahabi saw him praying which ever way, he took that and then taught to his own people. In the beginning even it was allowed to talk in salat and it wouldnt break your salat. Also you are mentioniing Bukhari over and over, now let see how much you follow Bukhari. There is hadees in Bukari which says that Prophet s.a.w would do rafa al yadeen after every movement in salat, after every sajda, between the sajdas but no one does it today? Even the hadees is saheeh. You should start doing that from tomorrow. A saheeh hadees doesnt mean its not abrogated, it just means its chain of narrations are ok. Its the work of mujtahid to see which hadees is abrogated and which is the abrogator.
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Have you read Ibn Kathir tafsir, read it and read the tafsir of Surah Al fatiha. Well i will give you other hadith
1) Abu Hanifa - Ablution should be done any woman except wife, mother and sister touch you.
Imam Shafi - Ablution to be done if any woman touches you except mom. Well tell me is this hadith not agains the hadith of the Prophet is this not bidah, dont tell me no, I have been an Hanifi for 23 years of my life before bulling around.
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Again there are hadees for both.
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Saying ameen slowly is a clear cut against, hadith of the Prophet please do some research on the Sahih bukhari which was told the best book after the Quran by the method of ijma and accordingly Ijma cant agree on falsehood.So decide what you want.
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So you are saying that Sahabas went against the words of Prophet s.a.w because majority of Sahbas said ameen slowly? This is my last time telling you, there are hadees for both sides, only difference is which is superior. You really sound ignorant and rude.
Re: references for ijma
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Ok you are like going in circles, so what if Imams were in different period of times? *Who said they didnt differ on fiqhi issues, I even gave you examplies lol. We were talking about Ijma, on things that Sahaba didnt differ also scholars who came after them didnt differ. *
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Aram se gusse mein dikh rahe hon. Cool down be rational in your thinking and not insular let it be anyone. You say that sahabas differed fine so you mean to say Sahabas differed to such an extent they went against the Prophet, I see well this is new to me.
Well and you tell me i am going round in circles, where am I. I am just quoting your stuff, well let me see prove me more of it.
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Tell me this, when was Bukhari compiled? It was compiled after 4 Imams passed away. So tell me what were people before Bukhari doing? They were not following hadees? Surely they were, just those hadees mihgt not have been written in book form then. 4 Imams knew hundred of thousands of hadees by heart. Even Imam Bukari was a Shafi, after knowing so many hadees he still followed a madhab, so who are we to now follow a madhab.
4 Imams didnt need Imam Bukharo to know hadees, they were before him and theirchain of narration was even smaller then Imam Bukhari. Imam Abu Hanifa even heard hadees from the Sahabas,He met the Sahabas and learned directly from them. Imam Bukhari came 250 years after.
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Let me tell you like you exactly said Hadees did prelude before Bukhari, why was it the best book you know the answer. Well why are you supporting only Imam Abu hanifa and not other imams are they not good enough. So what if they are 4 imams brother the ijma says that Sahih Bukhari is the best you follow ijma or whom coz if you dont you go against the hadeeth of the Prophet.
Even imam Malike met the sahabas why dont you quote his name. Knowin gthe hadess by heart is a good thing am i denying the imams, my God my brother we are not denying the imam understand here you spoke about ijma of 4 imams and you havent proven, so i want to see how far will you take the topic till you p rove me right.
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So you dont even kow the differenece between a madhab and a sect? Prophet s.a.w said there will be 73 sects and not 73 madhabs. 4 madhabs of make up Ahl Sunnah wal Jamat. And as I said these 4 Imams were either students of Sahabas or grand students of Sahabas, so now who is following the Sahabas?
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Well no need sect baba, take it as madhab itself happy. But why is that they is a sky difference between Hanafi and Shafi, Malaki and Hanbali. You read the rulings and then each one of them says it as bidah and i told you every innovation leads you to hell fire. Now go on keep supporting your thoughts.
Ok fine what else is it, in INdia and Pakistan a Hanafi is against a Shafi dont bull with me again. Go read Markat u Ala Kitab and Noor ul Anwar from the Hanafi maslak and you will knwo what they have to say about Imam Shafi.
Well forget about that whats more amazing is Deobandi and Barelvi follow one imam and have different creed and methodology.
Tell me I make it clear Madhabs is a translation for religion the right word is sect, coz its a belief you believe that Hanafi Madhab is right and you belong to that sect, well that doesnt matter.
Well other question, I challenge you give me the documented name of the book written by Abu Hanifa, i challenge you.
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Yes and and I told you to buy that book fiqh al imam and in there you will find different hadees. Also buy the book differences of imams by shaikh zakaraia, alot of your questions will be answered.
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Thanks for that can you give me a jist of it. Let me see how well you have understood.
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During different times, Prophet prayed different. So which ever Sahabi saw him praying which ever way, he took that and then taught to his own people. In the beginning even it was allowed to talk in salat and it wouldnt break your salat. Also you are mentioniing Bukhari over and over, now let see how much you follow Bukhari. There is hadees in Bukari which says that Prophet s.a.w would do rafa al yadeen after every movement in salat, after every sajda, between the sajdas but no one does it today? Even the hadees is saheeh. You should start doing that from tomorrow. A saheeh hadees doesnt mean its not abrogated, it just means its chain of narrations are ok. Its the work of mujtahid to see which hadees is abrogated and which is the abrogator.
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This is a concept provided by Indians and Pakistanis, and corner them and ask the truth let me see are you sure, Allaah ki kasam kahao. This is the concept i have got bored to living in India and listening to this Mullahs and they hardly provide any evidence its the same wiht you too.
Yes i agree there is a hadeeth regarding that, if no one does it today whose mistake is it. Fine if i tell you i do it then whats your say. if its a saheeh hadith its obligatory on everyone to follow it, do you follow it brother.
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So you are saying that Sahabas went against the words of Prophet s.a.w because majority of Sahbas said ameen slowly? This is my last time telling you, there are hadees for both sides, only difference is which is superior. You really sound ignorant and rude.
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Ok which is superiour brother, let me know then I will let you know about it.
I am not saying brother you are saying it whre am i, I am just questionin gyou thats all. No majority of sahabas said slowly new to me. Till now you havent provided with any authentic evidence and rest the case to you fine.
Well if i am ignorant and rude in what way. Cool down dont get angry, its only when you dont have answers you either evade the topic or start shouting. A typical Mullah response from India and Pakistan dont know the answer start calling out names.
So you agree that you are a Muqallid of the Imam and we are Muthabe to the Prophet. Because I dont follow any imam who came 80 years after the death of Prophet, I follow the The leader of Medina. Prophet sala Allaahu alayhi wa sallam.
Well there is a hadith taht Prophet drew 4 lines, and a straight line. Why only 4 lines this is something to ponder about and you know what did the Prophet had to say this straight line is my path.
PS: I respect the Imam no doubt about it May peace be upon all of them thats around 52 imams according to the ijma. Moreover, when you have a stronger daleel follow that and its an obligation. I am telling you follow any of the imams, but not blindly.
Re: references for ijma
Exactly the same questions that ghair muqalids of Pakistan ask l0l, nice. I used to have these same questions. I will answer in detail later, for now if you are willing to learn more buy the two book I have told you.
Also read this for now http://www.saleel.com/category/taqleed-madhhaaib/
Re: references for ijma
I am not clicking on any of the links, if you can summarize and put it across fine. Otherwise i am not interested.
I know how Okarvi had a problem with one of the Munazara with Shaik Talib ur RAhman, thougt I am an indian. I know whats happening. Infact I was Muqallid.
Tum Ghair Muqallid kehte kisko hon. I dont know you dont even know the opposite of it. Like din ka opposite raat hota hian not ghaire raat. Sunnah ka opposiet ghaire sunnat nahi hota hain bidat hota.
Waise hi taqlid ka opposite ithebe hota hian aur Muqallid ka opposite Muthabe hota hain. Ghair Muqallid nahi. Par Mutabe bolenge ko, kiske ithaba karte hain hum Huzoor ki ithaba karte hain aur unke Muthabe hain. par Ghair muqallid why do they call coz if they say the right opposite word, they will be question agar woh Huzoor ki ithaba karte hain to, muqallid log kya karte hain.
Re: references for ijma
Brothers! The original post by Usman Shahid regarding hadith literature on obeying the Ijma must be first sought out properly, rather than discussing further ahead. These all hadith must be understood in the light of Qur’an and Sunnah (and not the other way round). Qur’an makes us obliged to follow three basic authorities. 1- God (Qur’an) 2-Prophet (Sunnah, the practices of Abraham (as) which were instituted by prophet Muhammad (sws) as per 62:2 verse) 3- Leader of Muslim Government (Ameer). The basic sources of Islam are Qur’an and Sunnah, both of which came to us through pertpetual adherence of Ummah without any fault. From this point, Qur’an and Sunnah not only share same authority but also same authenticity. The hadith by Usman Shahid are pointing to this very fact. Also prophet Muhammad said at numerous places that Muslim Jamiat (community) has to be kept intact as well, and whoever challenges must be dealt by sword. This is according to the Qur’an, which gives this punishment for those spread (Fasaad) disorder in land.
It is a known fact that prophet Muhammad (sws) never made any authority or association among Muslims that would be responsible for making decisions for the Ummah. Ummah has hujjah (proof) over itself. After prophet Muhammad, no one can institute or state something that would become infallible. Hence, anyone who calls for true understanding of Islam through proper understanding of Qur’an and Sunnah should be listened whether people like it or not or their defacto Ijma (“sunni infalliable ijma”) even likes it or not, as at the end of the day, we are only liable to follow Qur’an and Sunnah which are here with us without any flaw.
Re: references for ijma
I give a hypothetical example to Khanbabax. There is a problem which has not been defined in Quran or Hadith. Imams of Past i.e. 4 Imams did ijtehad and passed a verdict off course keeping in view the Islamic & Social dimensions of the case. Now this is Ijtima and according to sunnies now no mjtahid or group of Mujtahids can re-open this case. I mean their decision is cast in iron like Quran aur Hadith. Is it so?
Re: references for ijma
Ok before I reply to you in detail, it would have been better if you just took some time out and read. Its ok, 1 thing, Talib ur Rahman is a Zaidi Shia. And read this video where he ran away from Munzara. http://www.ittehad.org/