Peace
Do we do everything for a reason? Do we believe everything that is done must be based on some sort of reason, however insignificant or baseless that reason may be … Are we governed by it?
I’m making the assumption that we do. For those who want to show otherwise please bring a discourse here to appraise your position.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
I beleive everything is pre-determined like a recipe.
However it's up to us as the chefs or ingrediants as to wether we do our bit...
The recipe might be perfect but the ingredients and the skill of the chef are what determines the outcome.
If the chef chooses to ignore items or picks poor ingredients or gets the amounts wrong then no matter how good the dish was supposed to look on the pictures the recipe would have been a disaster.
Well actually you cant blame the recipe the recipe was fine it was the cook or the ingredients that messed up....
Thats my simple way of thinking of the matter.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
My question was not about 'purpose' it was about 'reason'. I meant everything we do has some sort of impetus i.e. that we intend something by it or that some sort of intent can be fathomed by it, or else it will not be done. This distinctly differs from 'design purpose' which is what you have commented on.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
Aah thankyou for the correction.
I dont agree with it in this sense.
Becuase the way i see it many of man's discoveries have come about without any reason. I mean i doubt the first caveman knew what he was doing when he discovered fire... nor do i think Newton sat under that apple tree and waitred for the reason in gravity...
Many a time things come from pure chance.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
If we believe that Allah is aadil, then we must believe that insaan is fehem-e-akal and therefore able to rationalize his/her choices and take responsibilities for the same choices. If we take away our ability to reason through our choices, then we are nothing more than puppets with no free will.
Good or bad, major or minor, we make decisions both consciously and sub-consciously based on reason which moves our lives from point A to point B.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
I'm making the assumption that we do. .
May I ask, why?
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
May I ask, why?
Yes el topo
The reason why I made the assumption that "we do", is because I personally believe that we are motive. Either we observe things that happen and look for reasons or we only do things consciously for a reason or set of reasons. I want to be able to say that 'reason' is a precondition - that we cannot avoid it. Whether the reason is invalid or unsound that is not my point here. Just that we need some sort of justification whether to do or to give answers to why things are.
Is there a case where it can be shown that this does not apply ... if we can find that conclusively then I'll not make this claim since the falsification of it will be found. The response by Faris Udeen is not a falsification.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
Yes el topo
The reason why I made the assumption that "we do", is because I personally believe that we are motive. Either we observe things that happen and look for reasons or we only do things consciously for a reason or set of reasons. I want to be able to say that 'reason' is a precondition - that we cannot avoid it. Whether the reason is invalid or unsound that is not my point here. Just that we need some sort of justification whether to do or to give answers to why things are.
Is there a case where it can be shown that this does not apply ... if we can find that conclusively then I'll not make this claim since the falsification of it will be found. The response by Faris Udeen is not a falsification.
Must it be either or, can it not be a mix of the two?
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
Must it be either or, can it not be a mix of the two?
Peace el topo
Whether it is either, or, or the mix of the two, they will still be supporting my assumption. I'm looking for something to fulfil my falsification.
So yes, it can be a mix too, but I don't need convincing of that, I need convincing of the idea that this is not true, in order for me to dispand erroneous hypotheses - you see even this thread has "its reason".
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
Thanks, Psyah. I wanted to be sure I understood your meaning.
I doubt we'll find any conclusive convictions, but it is an interesting topic and I'll think about it further and get back to you. Reading both Sehrysh and Faris Udeen's posts, I'm thinking along the lines of serendipity at the moment.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
Aah thankyou for the correction.
I dont agree with it in this sense.
Becuase the way i see it many of man's discoveries have come about without any reason. I mean i doubt the first caveman knew what he was doing when he discovered fire... nor do i think Newton sat under that apple tree and waitred for the reason in gravity...
Many a time things come from pure chance.
But these discoveries come through while they were trying to figure something else? So, I think it will be somewhat inappropriate to say they came through without any reason.
I think there is a reason behind everything that happens, sometimes we just fail to see it
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
Aah thankyou for the correction.
I dont agree with it in this sense.
Becuase the way i see it many of man's discoveries have come about without any reason. I mean i doubt the first caveman knew what he was doing when he discovered fire... nor do i think Newton sat under that apple tree and waitred for the reason in gravity...
Many a time things come from pure chance.
Peace Faris Udeen
Caveman finds fire - first lets assume that cavemen are the predecessors of modern humans and let's also assume that fire was discovered by them. Let's assume that they didn't discover fire from active ignition sources until later, but found fire was around naturally from lava and from bush fires. Let's also assume that some animals caught fire and cooked in the blaze and their meat was eaten, let's hence assume again this tasted nice or nicer than raw meat. As far as the caveman is concerned the 'reason' for fire is to make food taste better. The reason for discovering a new thing according to atheists is due to our need to survive, according to theists is due to our need to know and hence worship our Creator. So both the fire itself and the discovery of it have reasons. They say that necessity is the mother of invention. And invention is more often than not based on discovery. So we can reason chance discoveries fairly easily.
With Newton, he came to the conclusion that the 'reason' why we stay on the ground is linked to the 'behaviour of falling objects'. The tale goes that it took a falling apple to make him realise this. He then pursued the reason for falling objects and gave it a name - The acceleration due to gravity. The discovery was made for the 'reasons' previously stated, and very thing that was discovered was laced in a network of 'reasons' that were being looked for.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
I gues we wont need reason for anything. We havnt seen allah stil we belive. We havnt seen faith still we belive , we havnt seen prophet S A W still we believe. Believe that wht matter in all. U can do anyting n wont need any reason if u jst vitually believe on the things.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
I gues we wont need reason for anything. We havnt seen allah stil we belive. We havnt seen faith still we belive , we havnt seen prophet S A W still we believe. Believe that wht matter in all. U can do anyting n wont need any reason if u jst vitually believe on the things.
Peace sugrfree
What you are saying here is "proof" - yes I agree with you that we do not need "proof" to believe. But we do need reasons to believe, don't we? We have not seen God - that would be 'proof', but what I am saying is that despite not seeing Him and it could be for the most irrational things, but we will give ourselves a reason to do it.
There is a reason to choose to believe in God even when we have not seen Him. That reason is because we can't explain everything ourselves so we say God is responsible for those things.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
Does that mean you are looking for reasoning to falsify your supposed position of reason and support your actual position of no-reason
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
To be more clear, would you provide some examples for both positions rather than talk in abstraction.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
To be more clear, would you provide some examples for both positions rather than talk in abstraction.
Peace kchughtai
If I could provide an example of a 'reasonless' thing then I would not be asking the question. However, if I did ask the question whilst at the same time knowing a possible example then my reason for asking the question would be different.
I am looking for a falsification of the hypothesis that we always either 'need reason' to do something, or we 'find' reason in what is happening or we do a mixture of these two things.
If I knew an example of something that falsifies this hypothesis then my 'reason' for asking would not necessarily be 'no reason' just a different reason. That different reason would be 'to prove something/show off' or to test others. This is not my intention. However, I've never seen myself doing something consciously for no reason or subconsciously where no reason can be found for it. Can you help?
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
Even with the insane - they may do things consciously for no reason, but does it mean that Allah (SWT) did not have a reason for them to be doing that?
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
Psyah,
I can't think of a single example which will falsify your hypothesis, at least not to your satisfaction. Everything happens because something happened before it. What you seem to be looking for is an unlinked act, completely solitary in nature. Pretty much nothing on the planet, or indeed even the planet itself, is a whole in itself; everything is dependent on something. Therefore reason, in the context in which you are using it, is always going to be there.
Re: Reason - Is it a precondition of our function?
Peace el topo
By the way you have phrased this, does it therefore mean that since God Exists without anything happening before, that the Existence of God has no 'reason', or if there is a reason it betrays us ever getting anywhere near it and hence we simply say it as 'no reason'. For those who do not believe in God they will also say "There is no reason for God" but they will say this for another 'reason'. If there is no reason for God to exist it does not mean that God does not Exist- or rather I should be saying Manifest.
Reason is sought in only those things that we believe exist except for God where we don't seek reason, by doing so we make a trade off that by accepting God and never obtaining the 'reason' for God, we actually find the 'reason' for a vast multitude of things, which would otherwise remain unknown to us had we not accepted the 'reason' that God causes things to be or Does things that have reason. There can be no unlinked act solitary in nature other than 'God Himself'.
Thanks