Reason for Pak Economic Slump [Split from Mumbai is Zardari's Kargil]

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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What 12 years of democratic rule? And where did these so called democrats came from? Bhutto was product of military rule & so is NS. Army generals never allowed system to work & you wonder how come such system doesn’t produce credible, democratic leaders at grassroots level?

I have seen plenty of poor people. Heck, I used to be poor myself, but I never thought about blowing myself up to kill others. It has nothing to do with poverty, but everything to do with fact that illiterate young men who are brain washed to believe in imaginary things & hopes of better after life.

No, ordinary solider has nothing to do with corrupt criminals on the top. All those soliders who have died in this so call war on terror were cannon fodder…so that men in GHQ will be getting their monthly check form Uncle Sam

CM, I really respect you b/c you’re one of the few well informed posters on this forum, but in this case, my friend, you you could not be more wrong. Bhutto was an opportunist politician no doubt, but seeds of country’s break were sowed long before that by military junta.

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Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...

I completely agree that we live on different planets. I provide empirical evidence regarding our agriculture sector and you don't even respond to it. I mention that the army is not the only one to blame and you ignore what the politicians have done completely. Not only that you post four lines which are nothing more than personal opinion. Yes we do live on different planets. Mine prefers analysis and evidence.

Our economic woes are structural and more importantly inherent of a badly managed system. The crazies in Pakistan didn't cause that. The past 20 years of misrule and gross mismanagement did that. Please explain to me how the Jihadi's as you refer to them are responsible for the regression of our health sector?

Also I find it appalling that you insult the concept of Jihad as described in our faith, by referring to these idiots as Jihadis. They aren't.

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Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...

Shamraz that is a slippery slope argument. You are essentially saying everything that occurs in Pakistan is due to the military. If that is the case than Benazir Bhutto has never accomplished anything in her entire life. Well other than looting the country. Every single action taken by Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto should be credited to the army then correct?

Education is a key factor I completely agree. Yes they are brainwashed. But people just don't join these crazies out of curiosity. They do so because they are deeply unhappy with their life is now. They feel that the injustice (rightly or wrongly) is not going to change and that their life has no growth prospects.

As for Bhutto and 1971. Its something you and I will never agree on. Bhutto had some good and bad qualities, but frankly he played it so that he could grab power. He was nothing more than a megalomaniac on a power trip.

If Bhutto had conceded his loss, Mujeb would not be given a reason to call for independence. Bhutto stole an election he lost. Much like Bush.

Why do you wear colored contacts if those are not your real eyes?
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Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...

^ lets not forget the mess the country is in today is because of the madrassas opened and drug and AK47 culture introduced by our beloved Zia, the destroyer of Paksitan in true sense. Surprisingly you totally ignored that fact. wake up.

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Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...

Ehsan who said I did? I have stated twice in this thread that the military are not the only ones to blame. Meaning I do agree they share part of the blame. Same goes for Zia's policies and his actions. The doctrine for strategic depth is still valid. More so now then before. However the method in which it was under taken in hindsight was detrimental to Pakistan in the long run.

But that does not change the fact that our economic woes are directly linked to Bhutto's failed and foolish nationalism policies. That our health, economic, social and well every other bloody sector has regressed during the period Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif were in power. Its getting worse under Zardari Bhutto.

I have yet to see a PPP support come out and agree to this. And people say the American's have a royal family complex. They should look at the PPP supporters.

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If you want to discuss the agriculture business in Pakistan please open a new thread and we can discuss in detail the topic in that thread...if we do that here I am afraid we will be grossly off topic...

When you have finished your self glorification...would you mind explaining 9/11 guys...I feel you have purposely ignored the point...

[quote]
Our economic woes are structural and more importantly inherent of a badly managed system. The crazies in Pakistan didn't cause that. The past 20 years of misrule and gross mismanagement did that. Please explain to me how the Jihadi's as you refer to them are responsible for the regression of our health sector?

Also I find it appalling that you insult the concept of Jihad as described in our faith, by referring to these idiots as Jihadis. They aren't.
[/QUOTE]

Your ability to make an intelligent point is highlighted in the bold sentence where you are accusing me of insulting the concept of jihad in Islam while in the same sentence you are referring to these so called jihadis as idiots...

Please show me where I insulted the concept of jihad as described in our faith...I also did the same sin as you did by saying some harsh things about these so called jihadis patronised over the years by our army mafia....dude you are very easily appalled...

I can tell you exactly why these jihadis are responsible for regression of health sector in our country...health sector like anyother sector in our country is suffering because of scarcity of resources available...and this scarcity of resources has occured due to economic fiasco our country is facing because of isolation we are facing due to perception of the country and the image we carry internationally due to these jihadis...

Are you aware of the fact that there were more than 100 buying offices of major world brand like Levis, JC Penny, Nike, Walmart, Target, etc etc...before the year 2000...today not a single buying house exist here...no buying house means no export...I hope you are intelligent enough to understand that...

We have very little or no FDI in our export sector....due to the image problem...I hope you can understand the consequences of this draw back...while India, China, Vietnam etc flourish because of these FDIs...

People don't travel anymore to Pakistan...means no tourist....means no business for local hotels, retail outlets, restaurants etc...

Buyers. investors, technicias, machinery erectors are afraid to visit Pakistan...can you understand the fall back economically due to these problems...

Yet you continue to self glorify yourself....and think you are a genius who has everything figured out...

7

Done.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/306477-feudalism-agriculture-sector-pakistan.html

Ignore what? That they were brainwashed dumbasses that have made life miserable for over 1 billion Muslims around the world? What’s to ignore about that?

When it comes to my faith by all means I am easily appalled. Sadly too few people here show that respect to Islam anymore. These men in FATA and Afghanistan are by no means representative of the concept of Jihad. They target innocent men women and children. They target social institutions and make life miserable for the average citizens. They hide like cowards and refuse to follow basic Islamic jurisprudence. How does that make them Mujahideen or Jihadis as you call them?

Incorrect. Our economic situation did not start 2 years ago when the suicide bombing started. It started roughly 18 years ago give or take a year or two. No democratic government has to date invested in infrastructure development to make transport of goods cheaper thus making our exports cheaper. Secondly our image in 1989 when Bhutto came to power was the best it has been since Ayub Khan? Why? Because she was hailed as the saviour of Pakistan. Her books and articles written during that time describe her as the future of Pakistan and the one person who can change stuff. She didn’t change anything.

Also to follow up with your comments, the Isolation started when exactly? Because from 2002 to 2006 we were the darlings of the world. We had more exporters than ever before and we had money coming in just like we had in the early 90s when Bhutto was in power.

Err…care to back that up with proof? And are you serious about linking the housing market with exports? You have to be joking.

FDI.net-Countries-Pakistan - 4.5 billion dollars in 2006/2007.
BOI Pakistan - 5.15 Billion in 2007/2008

BOI Pakistan

Look at the tables the invest is in key Export areas like Textiles and IT.

Lack of tourism is linked to a regression in our social sector. Brilliant.

Go ahead and look at the links I posted.

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Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...

CM,

Buying house has nothing to do with housing or real estate. It is a textile market or in general consumer goods related business entity that acts as an agent for a retailer or a brand in the West and buys wholesale goods manufactured in low-wage countries. Buying houses decide, for instance, where Ralph Lauren will make its next year's trousers or shirts.

Some of my relatives are in the export business and I can tell you that while it has not fully shut down as per yazdi's claims, buying house related activity has come down by more than 60-70% in the last 6-7 years. Some of the business has gone to India and Bangladesh while others have gone to China. Many people have switched for safety and supply chain reliability reasons. Another reason was that between 2002 and 07, we had a real estate bubble that diverted capital into land and no one invested in textile related machinery and associated infrastructure.

GS Apprentice - TEAM 2 (Task 1)!!!!!!
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Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...

Thanks for the compliments. But credit goes to family specifically my dad. I just recently joined. So anything I know or can say is due to his guidance and more importantly his help.

As stated previously those interested in the UN, I am more than willing to help with applications (reading and helping with what is important), information and anything else. Since I am still bottom rung of the ladder, I have no real contacts. A few years from now, well then that is a different ball game. :D

Now on to the matter at hand.

JaanBaazz exactly my point. Textiles is based off the agriculture sector. How much money do the exports of textile and textile related products make a year? 3 billion roughly? Out of that 3 billion how much reaches the average farmer in Pakistan? Zilch. None. Nothing. It goes all to the man who owns the land the cotton is grown on and the guy who owns the textile mill. In many cases, it is the same family. Where is the income distribution? Where is the trickle down effect? And if there was no investment in the textile industry that is the fault of the industrialist is it not? Because these factories are privately owned after all.

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Your comment totally reflects your ignorance regarding the export business....bhaijaan if you are so ignorant about these things why are you so desperately trying to act like a big expert on the subject...

The term "Buying House" refers to an office set up by an organized big buyer to source the merchandise from that respective market...a buying house constitues designers, line makers, production experts, inspectors, auditors, commercial staff, logistic consolidators and so on to facilitate the buying operation of that particular buyer....this is a very common terminology used in such kind of business and has nothing to do with real estate housing business like you have understood...

I hope you understand I am not joking....

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Again your comment shows your ignorance regarding the export sector of Pakistan....for your kind information the contribution of textile sector in total exports of Pakistan is over 60% out of total 18 billion dollars and this is in addition to a large domestic textile industry which fulfills your domestic needs for clothing and other textile products such as home textiles, towels, etc etc...which makes the sector a contributor of over 10 billion dollars per annum in foreign exchange earnings...this sector is by far the largest foriegn exchange contributor and the largest employer in Pakistan after agriculture....and it's pathetic to note your humilating thoughts about both these sectors..

None of the major cotton growing farmer is in textile business in Pakistan....although some ginners are in textile business such as Fazal Group in Multan....cotton is traded in Pakistan at international prices and whtever the international price is the farmer more or less gets the same...

As for trickle down effect....please go and visit a textile garment factory just once in your life....they employ thousands of people at very decent salaries as per Pakistan standards...

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I never claimed that textile business has totally shut down in Pakistan...I claimed 100% of organised full fledged buying houses have shut down in Pakistan....although some buyers have down sized their buying houses to merely liason offices falling under their main buying house in India, Singapore or even Dhaka...

As a consequence people who were working with organized buyers in the sector are in dire straits...Just to name a few factories who have totally shut down because of the lack of organised buyers in Pakistan...

Ammar Textile....more than 4000 people are laid off..

Sara Textile....more than 3000 people are laid off..

Class Textile....more than 3000 people are laid off..

Ejaz Textile....more than 3000 people are laid off...

High Noon....more than 2000 people are laid off..

Angora Textile.....more than 3000 people are laid off

Naveena....more than 4000 people are laid off...

and there are many more...

All these factories used to work with these organised buyers who do not want to source from Pakistan anymore....not because they have quality problems or Pakistan is expensive....just because of country perception they do not want to continue with their buying houses....

Before 2005 when textile quota regime came to an end globally our textile business people invested over ten billion dollars in infra structure and new capital investment as they expected Pakistan to get a major share of world textile business....but unfortunately never happend because of our jihadi brothers supported by our army mafia...

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Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...

sigh Why do people get personal when they can't respond to the points at hand? Get personal when you can actually respond to the questions.

  1. Agriculture thread is open. By all means respond now.

[quote]
Your comment totally reflects your ignorance regarding the export business....bhaijaan if you are so ignorant about these things why are you so desperately trying to act like a big expert on the subject...

The term "Buying House" refers to an office set up by an organized big buyer to source the merchandise from that respective market...a buying house constitues designers, line makers, production experts, inspectors, auditors, commercial staff, logistic consolidators and so on to facilitate the buying operation of that particular buyer....this is a very common terminology used in such kind of business and has nothing to do with real estate housing business like you have understood...

I hope you understand I am not joking....
[/quote]

Right and the BOI of Pakistan has had no investment of any kind in the past 2 years related to "buying house". So where is all this FDI going - specifically the ones linked to the Textile sector i provided in the link above?

[quote]
Again your comment shows your ignorance regarding the export sector of Pakistan....for your kind information the contribution of textile sector in total exports of Pakistan is over 60% out of total 18 billion dollars...which makes the sector a contributor of over 10 billion dollars per annum in foreign exchange earnings...this sector is by far the largest foriegn exchange contributor and the largest employer in Pakistan after agriculture....and it's pathetic to note your humilating thoughts about both these sectors...

None of the major cotton growing farmer is in textile business in Pakistan....although some ginners are in textile business such as Fazal Group in Multan....cotton is traded in Pakistan at international prices and whtever the international price is the farmer more or less gets the same...

As for trickle down effect....please go and visit a textile garment factory just once in your life....they employ thousands of people at very decent salaries as per Pakistan standards...
[/quote]

I was refering to pre-musharraf times, when our exports averaged between 7 and 9 billion dollars. You said that terrorism has caused the change. Now it is as you say 10 billion dollars for textiles. Yet there has been no signifcant change in the living standard of the average worker in the Pakistani textile sector. From 1999 to 2009, there has been a huge increase in exports of textiles. But have the salaries risen by that huge increase? Nope. There is no trickle down effect. If there is by all means prove it. I would love to see the change in PPP and real income. Because I have yet to see that being noted by any Economist in Pakistan.

Lastly you are seriously linking the advent of China in 2005 to the Jihadis? Hello we had no bomb blasts in Pakistan in 2005. What we did have is the textile embargo on China end. With that the Chinese textile industries were open to compete and flooded the market. By all means look up the WTO and World Bank press releases on this isssue.

All I see is personal opinion, while the BOI states we have had direct investment in the Textile sector as pointed out by the links I posted. Who do I believe you or the BOI?

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Bhaijan where am I getting personal...I am merely stating facts where you are trying to become a big expert on a subject where you are not even aware of the basics...

A) You referred to the term buying house as actually buying houses as done in the real estate sector...

B) you stated the textile export of Pakistan as 3 billion dollars and posing as if you are a big expert on export sector of Pakistan...

Bhaijan if you want to have a politically correct conversation better don't do it with me....You are well aware of my reputation....I am little blunt and crude....and that's the way I am....if you don't like it...

I stated in the begining that you have a point of view and I differ with your point of view however I respect your right to have your views....you were the one who accused me of being unpatriotic and doubted if I was even a Pakistani...and yet you are accusing me of getting personal....you even doubted if I was even a Muslim and posed your faith is much superior to mine self glorifying yourself and your faith in Islam....tell me one instance where I accused you of anything except being unaware of basic knowledge of the subject where you are trying to have a long debate...and I showed you exactly why I said that...and yet you are the one accusing me of getting personal....thora sa apnay garibaan mein bhi jhanko...

and what exactly are you trying to make a point by posting a link...that textile exports are 3 billion dollars and a buying house is actually buying real estate...or we had an FDI of 267 million dollars in textile sector in last 8 years and it is actually something to be proud of...

Discussion we are having is that you say jihadi's have no contribution in hindering the export business of Pakistan and I am trying to debate they are the major factor in restricting the export business in Pakistan....and ** I am making my points exactly in line with the debate in hand**....you are the one trying to derail from the subject by bringing agriculture sector and trickle down effect....you are not responding to the discussion/debate in hand...

As far as your agriculture thread is concerned I'll respond to it when I have more time...don't worry....just be kind enough to wait a little longer....and if you don't like your ideas to be opposed and think it's like getting personal....do let me know in that case as well....I'll refrain from any furthur discussion with you...

I don't even mind if you get personal...just try to make an intelligent discusion if you are capable of the same....until now you have proven toatally opposite...

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Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...

Good grief. This is an internet forum of all places and you keep dodging the questions. I am waiting for your response on the trickle down affect of the 10 billion dollars a year.

Now back on track to the issues you refuse to discuss:

[quote]
We have very little or no FDI in our export sector....due to the image problem...I hope you can understand the consequences of this draw back...
[/quote]

Your original comment. I provided links stating just the opposite. I made a comment we are still getting FDI in our export related sectors, which you stated here we aren't getting.

Rest of the issues still stand. Provide proof to ascert your claims.

[quote]
I never claimed that textile business has totally shut down in Pakistan...I claimed 100% of organised full fledged buying houses have shut down in Pakistan....
[/quote]

Back that up. Once you actually show empirical evidence of the trickle down affect you claim is happening we can move on.

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An FDI of 30 million dollars in the largest export sector i.e. textile in last whole one year...can you explain what's the point you are trying to make....is it something to be proud of...when you clubbed textile with IT sector you forgot to mention it was IT and telecom sector according to the BOI table provided in the link provided by you...and the dumbest in Pakistan knows how much FDI came in IT and how much FDI came in telecom sector....was your ommission of the word telecom intentional to misguide the forum readers you so proudly claim to guide...

[quote]
Look at the tables the invest is in key Export areas like Textiles and IT.

[/quote]

Sector Wise FDI Inflows (Million $)

Sector 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09
(July-October)
Oil & Gas 80.7 268.2 186.8 202.4 193.8 312.7 545.1 634.8 224.8
Financial Business (34.9) 3.6 207.4 242.1 269.4 329.2 930.3 1,607.6 322.8
Textiles 4.6 18.5 26.1 35.4 39.3 47.0 59.4 30.1 9.0
Trade 13.2 34.2 39.1 35.6 52.1 118.0 172.1 175.5 54.6
Construction 12.5 12.8 17.6 32.0 42.7 89.5 157.1 88.5 17.4
Power 39.9 36.4 32.8 (14.2) 73.4 320.6 193.4 70.3 53.8
Chemical 20.3 10.6 86.1 15.3 51.0 62.9 46.1 78.0 13.0
Transport 45.2 21.4 87.4 8.8 10.6 18.4 30.2 73.0 16.0
Communication (IT&Telecom) NA 12.8 24.3 221.9 517.6 1,937.7 1,898.7 1,625.3 355.2
Others 140.9 66.2 90.4 170.1 274.0 285.0 1,107.2 769.7 254.6

Total 322.4 484.7 798.0 949.4 1,523.9 3,521.0 5,139.6 5,152.8 1,321.2
Privatization Proceeds - 127.4 176.0 198.8 363.0 1,540.3 266.4 133.2 0.0
FDI Excluding Pvt. Proceeds 322.4 357.3 622.0 750.6 1160.9 1980.7 4873.2 5,019.6 1,321.2

Or loss of jobs does not answer your trickle down or reverse trickle down effect...

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one word CORRUPTION

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Re: Reason for Pak Economic Slump [Split from Mumbai is Zardari’s Kargil]

You stated that due to Jihadi’s and our horrible reputation we are getting little to no FDI in our economy and speciifcally our export sector. That is obvious false when looking at the BOI statistics. More importantly as seen in this table: BOI Pakistan which covers Direct and Portfolio Investment (Million $)

Compared to last year (July to November period) where we have only a decrease of ~7% in our FDI. Our FDI last year was 5 billion dollars plus. So far we can the “Jihadis” for a ~7% decrease in FDI for the period of July to November. Only ~7%

For those who don’t wish to look at the link our FDI is 1.6 billion right now. Not bad at all considering our “Jihadi” problem.

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Re: Reason for Pak Economic Slump [Split from Mumbai is Zardari's Kargil]

Dependence on army.

It is somehow interesting that whenever we get a civilian government, all the foreign investment goes away... USA distances itself from Pakistan, investors run from the country like anything... and we all blame politicians for the carnage.

US installs a general in the country, and everything is rosy.