Real Islam vs Mullahism

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

And that is absolutely correct, he allowed it. There are circumstances where lying and deception are allowed. When you are at war with someone, lying and deception is a strategy to win unless it means you are violating terms of a treaty. This is why I stated that you should first learn to relate our history with the ahadith before you go off rejecting them. I am not exception myself, there are certain ahadith even I question and I do not put ahadith and Quran at par with each other however I do not blindly try to understand ahadith without knowing what lies behind them and without reading up on all the other ahadith related to the topic either. The approach you are taking is rash.

The muslims of madinah were at war with Makkan polytheists until the treaty of Hudaibiyyah after which there was a period of truce. This incident happening way before the peace treaty. This is not the only thing muslim did to fight the war with their enemy the Quraish. They did many pre-emptive strikes before the enemy could muster enough strength and march upon them, raided many caravans to economically weaken Quraish during their war with them. So your understanding here is very flawed if you cannot recognize the difference between what people do to win a war against their enemy and what they do when a truce or cordial relations exist.

Another example is that the muslims used deception as a strategy to win the war of the confederates (known as Khandaq or battle of the trench). This was also before Hudaibiyyah. Generally haram things or discouraged things can be allowed based on certain circumstances.

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

I have always found the Sufi interpretation to Islam to be the most accurate and most inspiring...

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

Thanks brother for showing me my mistake....

I stand corrected and accept your explaination. I really liked the comment somebody made in another thread that thanks God we have started to discuss these things....

The last phase of prophetic life is very complicated and must be understood with utmost care. Certain rules of normal behaviour were broken through a divine decree to enable the Prophet to accomplish his mission of establishing Islam as a major religion within his life time...

However I do not agree with you when you say lying and deception are allowed in Islam. It was allowed only through a divine decree to accomplish that specific purpose at that specific time only. If you keep in mind the principals of Sunnah lying and deception are not allowed to us under any circumstances living in this age, when war is not allowed to us to impose Islam as a religion on non muslims. To us war is only allowed against injustice only under the command of our government....

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

:salam:

Agreed and this is not just the case with the last phase of his SAW prophetic life.

Bro, I think you misunderstood me. I am not saying lying and deception is allowed in Islam as a general rule. It should not be part of your character. However it is used to achieve a certain benefit in specific cases such as war, reconcilation between husband and wife, life threatening situations etc.

I agree war is not allowed to impose religion on non-muslims. However that is not a just war to begin with and even if muslims are victorious in it, Allah SWT Inshallah! will punish the muslims for that sooner or later unless muslims reprimand themselves for their incorrect actions.

Could you give an example of what you mean in the emboldened sentence?

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

I agree with you when you say a lot of Clerics today are quite ignorant, in my opnion they need to acquire both religious and secular knowledge and an understanding of the socities they serve in to be effective and answer questions.

I also agree with you that it is important to understand the context and situation each Koranic verse or Sunnah Hadith applies to but I disagree with you when you think you can just reject any Hadith or verse based on your personal whim, desire, incomplete knowledge and limited wisdom rather than it being proven to be false or weak through Ahadeeth Science.

Your incomplete knowledge of the Ahadeeth you posted is evident, it's not intellectual to simply disregard everything you don't understand, you have to be sincere in gaining knowledge and finding answers, sincere people always get hikmah (wisdom) from Allaah, insincere people who would much rather Islaam was proved wrong so that they can reject all or part of it so that they become guilt-free to follow their whims, desires and lusts will be made deaf, dumb and blind by God because they are ingreatful, this is one of the miracles of the Koran, its mysteries can only be comprehended by those who approach it with a sincere and pure qalb, those that have malicious intentions, or have preconcieved opnions they'd rather support are kept under veils and never see the light..

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 326:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
Once I was with the Prophet in the mosque at the time of sunset. The Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and prostrates underneath (Allah's) Throne; and that is Allah's Statement:--

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Dying Sun Hadith

Modern science has shown that the sun is in a state of constant deperdition of energy and that it will inevitably die as a star, implode, and engulf the earth into its supra-dense mass. Al-Bukhari and Muslim narrate from Abu Dharr - Allah be well-pleased with him - that the Prophet - upon him and his House blessings and peace - said as the sun was setting:

Do you know where it goes? It goes to where it prostrates under the Throne and asks permission to rise again. Then it receives permission. The time is very close when it will prostrate but it will not be accepted, and it will ask permission but not receive it. It will be told, "Go back whence you came." At that time it will rise from its place of setting. This is His saying – Most High is He! - {and the sun runs its course until its place of rest (mustaqarr); that is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise} (36:38).

The Prophet said that the sun went to a certain place he described as its place of "prostration" in every day-and-night cycle. The repetitive "prostration" of the sun refers to its perceived movement of "rising" and "setting" in relation to the earth, as in the verse referring to the prostration of all the heavenly bodies in the sky of the earth - {The sun and the moon are made punctual and the stars and trees adore} (55:5-6). This rising and setting is described as a prostration under the Throne to signify the seemingly replenished energy which these innumerable and massive objects possess. The end of their prostration signifies the termination of their energy.

Western cosmology traces this energy back to the Big Bang and extrapolates that its universal end occurs in the Cosmic Crunch of which the so-called Black Holes are miniature models in the view of the Princeton physicist who coined the latter term, John Archibald Wheeler. The Sunna names the Throne as the source of this energy and describes the end of the supply as the termination of Divine permission for the sun to "rise again" in the usual manner. At that time it will "go back whence it came" in the sense of stopping its course, reversing it, or imploding. This end-of-time even signifies the end of the function of the sun in relation to the earth, at which time the sun will go to its mustaqarr or "place of rest," i.e. it will die as a star. The Cosmic Crunch is essentially a cosmic reversal of motion - from expansion to implosion – and the hadith expressed this reversal of motion by describing the sun as rising from the West.
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Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

Thanks for understanding the main point I am trying to make. Well that is my real intention of posting these thoughts and the reason we are here discussing these things in this forum and is to learn from each other. After all whatever we learnt in life is from people around me.

I need a little more time to study the points you are making regarding the specific hadith. However I have no shame in admitting where I am wrong and concede to any logical explaination. However in this case I shall revert to you after studying a little furthur.

Please keep in mind my main point regarding Hadiths. It is a matter of priorities. Hadiths have to be audited in the light of Quran and principals of suunah, not the other way around. After all the cart has to stay behind the horse....

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

In that specific sentence I was referring to Prophetic mission of establishing Islam as a major religion to give an alternative to humankind within the life time of the prophet. Now as the Holy Prophet is no more between us and we have no means of getting a divine decree from the God in the shape of Revealations, we rely on the principals of sunnah.

  1. Our actions should be for betterment of Islam. Specifically I mean the actions which destroy the image and spreading of Islam are directly in contradiction with the principals of sunnah.

  2. Our actions should conform to the basic moral standard of humanity. Any action which shows Muslims as insensitive or inhaumane are in contradiction to principals of sunnah.

  3. Our actions should be logical.

As all prophetic life like you very rightly said followed these three principals and not only the last phase of his life, we have to act according to these principals and join the humanity on these basis…

Prophet used agression in the last phase of his life because it was necessary based on the above mentioned rules of sunnah. As you have very rightly mentioned some people who do not take for instance surah Tawbah in the light of principals of sunnah are destroying the image of Islam by projecting Islam as a violent intolerant message and acting in a manner which has become a matter of shame for the ummah. Bin Laden brand of Islam and Khomeini brand of Islam has done a great damage to the image of Islam and has proven counterproductive in the spreading of Islam. These people do not think if their actions will be for the betterment of Islam or will do more damage. This version of Islam is insensitive, intolerant, illogical and against the principals of sunnah…

Allah (sws) will surely deal with such people in the hereafter…

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

Actually women can have facial hair which is why we have a big market for hair removal products..

You gotta visit the lifestyles subforum here.. ;) :p

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

:salam:

May I add we reply on principles in Quran and Sunnah.

Agree.

Agree.

Logic may sometimes escape the perception of what is right to many.

Your thoughts seem to resound my own. May Allah SWT guide those who are misguided and give them time to repent and save them from the hellfire.

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

:omg:
you crack me up :rotfl:

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

suppose if you see a person hiding and another person who is finding him to kill, and he asked about the first person where is he otherwise i will kill you , and you know where is he
will you say , there is he and allowed him to kill
or say "I don’t know might be he go there pointing toward wrong side " a lie or deception

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

:salam:

When people laugh too much its a sign of a good joke or a touch of insanity. I know I wasn’t telling a joke. :smiley:

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

Dear Brother,

There is no need to be apologistic. This person is advised to read the whole thread carefully wherein we are trying to explain the objections which normally non muslims throw on muslims due to misunderstanding of Islam by some so called champions of our religion who have hijacked our beautiful religion. If this person had some brains he would have come up with some intellectual argument which we know on the basis of sunnah we can explain very easily. You can not take these clowns seriously....

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

U r right yazdi Islam is a very nice and cool religion but some mulas are hijaked it.They sold our religion they are not truely muslims .

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

You obviously haven't met Pakistani women.

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

So you reject a poetical and actually valid description of what happens? We ALL lie under the throne of Allah in one sense, and does it not say that everything in the universe worships Allah? In that sense (though perhaps not in a literal and ‘true’ sense), the sun DOES prostrate under Allah’s Throne.

Using what you perceive as logic as the basis for rejecting a particular hadith comes dangerously close to that of the other religions who strayed from their true teachings…

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

you can come up with situations to go around almost any prohibition. The point is, if u’r going to lie just do it but don’t try to come up with some half-baked logic to justify it.

wa-alaikum-asslaam
that was a gud joke sir. u’r very funny without meaning to :slight_smile:

y thank you. wot stops me from coming up with my own rant against you except common decency? if one needs to come up an intellectual argument to make someone understand lying is not allowed in the religion, then i’m sorry i’m in the wrong thread.

and let me save you the trouble of labeling me as a mullah next. i’m neither a fundamentalist, nor do i support them or their so called jihad. I despise them for hijacking my religion for their own political agendas.

you first post was started very well but then you encountered the same problem every other “intellectual” encounters when trying to understand the religion, relying on nothing but their own ‘logic’. I’ll try to show you in the following post where your ‘logic’ has gone off course and obscured your vision.

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism


The Holy Prophet did not abolish slavery? the way islam and the Holy Prophet abolished slavery was far better than they way it was abolished in the west. Just saying you can't have slaves is not abolishing slavery. For example, slavery was abolished in US in the 1800s yet blacks were economic and political slaves until the 1960s and are still not seen as equal citizens. On the other hand, Islam provided so many ways for slaves to be freed and the Holy Prophet put so much emphasis on freeing slaves. And once someone was freed, they became part of the society just like everyone else and were free in the true sense of the word.

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Now let’s try to understand the message of Allah in the light of principals of Sunnah.

Prophetic life can be divided in to three distinct phases. In the first phase In Mecca fighting was prohibited. It was necessary to show the real and humane message of Islam. If you study the revelations of that time and see them in the light of principals of sunnah, these revelations conformed with all the three principals of sunnah. There was no need for fighting as muslims were not rulers of Mecca and whole of their concentration was on propagating the message of Islam.
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are you implying they would've fought had they been rulers of Mecca?

[quote]

The second phase of prophetic life started when Medina came under the rule of Holy Prophet. Fighting was permitted at that time against injustice and oppression. It was necessary to maintain the law and order. If you study the revelations of the time you perfectly understand them in the light of sunnah.

The third phase of prophetic life started when in Medina fighting was made obligatory. This phase was started for certain specific reasons. As the prophet had a mission to establish Islam as a major religion during his life time, in order to give an alternative religion to humankind for times to come. Also if you understand the political religious situation of the seventh century, religion used to be imposed by the rulers on people. Therefore through a divine decree prophet was asked to act aggressively and establish Islam as a major religion. If you study the revelations and actions of the prophet in light of principals of sunnah you will understand perfectly. Surah Tawbah and Al Ahzaab represent this period.
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i strongly object to this reasoning. you are dead wrong when you say the Prophet used fighting and aggressiveness to establish Islam. Any fighting in the life of the Prophet was done solely in defence or if the enemy violated an agreement.

compare the number of people who embraced Islam in the years before the agreement at Hudabiya (remember this period is of wars and persecution) with those who became muslims in the time between hudabiya and the fall of Mecca and you'll see that Islam spreads much more rapidly in time of peace and that is precisely the reason the Holy Prophet accepted the terms of the agreement of Hudabiya even though muslims in general considered this agreement to be insulting and showed the muslims as having a position of weakness. The reason Islam spread was beacuse of its logical and beautiful teachings which appealed to masses.

[quote]

Are we required to forget the rest of Quran and follow Surah Tawbah and Alahzaab, and go on a shooting spree, killing and slaying non muslims today. The answer lies in principals of Sunnah. The need of the hour is to understand the message of these surahs in the light of logic as these surahs were revealed to prepare muslims to achieve this specific mission. In modern era of media and news, if we slay people and show the video on internet, will it be for betterment of Islam. Is religion to be forced on people today where most of the governments give you freedom to follow any religion, should we act illogically when sunnah teaches us to be logical. Why in the first phase of prophetic life our Holy Prophet did not use force to establish Islam. He was following the 3rd rule of Sunnah.
[/quote]

see the rest of the paragraph makes sense and is very logical, but then your logic takes you down the same path. The Holy Prophet NEVER EVER used force to establish Islam. No one in the world can provide a better example of tolerance towards non-religionists, when a perticular religion was the religion of the rulers, as was showing in the time of our Holy Prophet.

[quote]
Can Islam today spread with Klashinkov shariat. How many people will be attracted to the folds of Islam by showing this kind of face to the world???
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No it will not spread with Klashinkov but then again it never spread with force to start with. See this is the exact kind of reasoning that gives non-muslims ammunition to attack Islam. when the 'logical' and fundamentalist followers are both admitting to the use of force in spreading Islam, it being of no consequence that one uses the force presently and the other admits of its use in the past, then why should the enemies not say that Islam is a violent religion which was spread by force.

[quote]
When our Holy Prophet changed his strategy according to whatever was best for Islam, why we have denounced the use of logic and take the message of Islam without considering the principals of Sunnah….
[/quote]

mind explaining where those principles came from?

Re: Real Islam vs Mullahism

The only reason I called you a clown was your attitude of posting one sentence comment with cartoon characters when a serious debate is on going on such a sensitive matter. This was to point out your mistake and bring you to this debate in more meaningful manner as we would simply like to learn from each other.

If you have read my post carefully my stand is lying and deception are simply not allowed in Islam under any circumstances. US Resident pointed out 2 situations where it may be allowed:

1) To save a marriage. I think marriages can be saved with honesty and truth and not through lying and deception. Any marriage which will be saved through lying and decetion will eventually fail.

2) To save one's life. Prersonally speaking I would not resort to lying and deception if I am in such situation as I believe I will be in a better situation if I stick to honesty and truth to save a llife (mine or somebody else's) under any circumstances. However it is a matter of one's logical choice under these extreme situations.

Therefore my stand on lying and deception is very clear that it is not allowed under any situation.

However I conceded to the fact it may have been allowed by the Prophet in the third phase of Prophetic life for the reasons already explained in my earlier post. It is the same logic with which aggression was allowed at that time to establish Islam and is not allowed now.

I am not here to score points or win debates, rather I am here to learn from you. If you can point out my mistakes logically I will have no shame in conceding, and I expect the same from you...