Reaction I Submit Islam to Jewish Prophets

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Seminole,

There is more evidence to believe in the accurate compilation of Quran.

1) The learned Arabs of the time were exhaustive in their memorization. They would memorize lengthy narratives with little to no errors. Actually anthropologists have proven that before the invention of cheap paper & printing press most nations around the world tried to excel in the skill of memorization.

2) During the revelation of the Quran there were companions of the Holy Prophet who would do nothing learn Islamic conjunctions and memorize Quran! They were called Ashab-e-Suffa.

3) During the month of Ramadan, it was a tradition to recite all the Quran that has been revealed. If you are familiar with the Muslim prayers style you would know that the leader (or Imam) recits the verses of Quran loudly while the rest follow silently repeating the verses in their heart. This practice help memorize Quran to the people who are listening but if someone already knows, it's a way of correcting mistakes. Praying in such a manner 5 times a day, 365 times a year, makes the verses in-grained in the brain like second nature. Keeping in mind the fact that the Holy Prophet used to be present to make corrections is another plus.

My father leads my family in prayers everyday & he is particularly fond of some verses in Quran that he recites in prayers often. Now if someone just tells me the first few words of those verses, I can take it on from there, reciting the rest of them. Even though I don't know where exactly they are in the Quran. But just by listening to them over and over again, I have got them memorized.

4) When Hazrat Usman (The Caliph who first compiled Quran in a form of book) took up this task, he had people from all over Arabia, from all the different tribes, come over to help in the compilation! There are traditions that state that there were differences in opinion on when the verse was revealed & the pronunciation of certain words, but the content was not challenged even once! He declared that as the Holy Prophet was from the Quraish tribe, so the pronunciation of his tribe will be considered valid. (In Arabic, the same word if pronounced differently means different things).

5) It's been close to 1400 years, though not even a single evidence suggests that the original text compiled by Hazrat Usman has changed. You will find different translations, different interpretations but the Arabic text has been preserved for ever. There is only one version of Quran. If there were mistakes in the compilation, different versions are bound to pop up, but no such X copy exists.

But if one does not believe in it's divinity of a scripture then the accuracy of compilation really doesn't mean anything.

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well it is the muslim faith that the Quran was completed during the lifetime of prophet Muhammed :saw:, yes complete, written, and learned. afterwards,the preserving of the original text of the Quran began right after the death of Prophet Muhammed :saw: i.e. during the days of Caliph Abubakr R.A. and later during the times of Caliph Osman R.A. who sent the copies of original text to different parts of islamic empire. (history doesnt report any allegations that question the accuracy of those replications, so i assume they were all true, accurate, trustworthy etc.) Secondly, the language of the Quran is still present in the world while those of Bible and Torah are not spoken anymore. Plus, the katib-e-wahi (the recorders of revelations) are also well known in islamic history.

Seminole: a pretty typical objection. but i’ll try to answer. i can see your point but i would like to point out that your dissent still holds true for the ‘ahadith’ but not the quran. scholars have questioned the trustworthiness, accuracy, and inculpability of these companions R.A. about forwarding the 'words of Muhammed :saw: ’ . However, this is not the case for Quran. like i mentioned those who wrote whatever was revealed, did so in the presence of Prophet Muhammed :saw: Hope that clears things up for you.

PS. i think its a useless debate that we are doing here. who is this jab guy? i doubt he even knows anything about islam as a faith.

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ahmadjee, thank you for the explanation. But while I agree it is possible that ancient Arabs had memorization capabilities that far exceed the abilities of normal man, I maintain that is still not "evidence" to the 100% accurate compilation of Quran.

I do however, believe this statement to be 100% accurate: if one does not believe in it's divinity of a scripture then the accuracy of compilation really doesn't mean anything.

Perhaps even further off topic, but related to all things in theological disucssions: I believe that the propensity to believe in the divinity of scripture has more to do with where someone was born and the culture in which they were raised than it has to do with logic or spiritual inspiration.

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1) What do I have to do with Islam

Islam is crossing my way since I was between 3 months to 6 months old. This year in a discussion.

I am not encroaching into Islam's way. It is not the monotheism God, I know, but it is Islam that encroaches into my way.

I saw my colleaque borrowing a few books. I was having free time. Asked for one book. That was the only book I read of those set of books. That was the first book of testimony that I ever read.

"I dared to call him Father" by Bilqueis Sheikh.

2) Divinity and Faith

Bilqueis's faith was like you like "Quran is directly from God. God preserved it intact. Bible/Torah was manipulated.

By the time she started writing this book, she believed on the authenticity of Bible.

3) Sura 2 mentions Quran came to confirm Torah and Bible. Sura 7 evidences the authenticity of the books of Moses.

Quran states that the mountain was blasted by God. Quran fails to say whether the mountain was brought to the original space as it was standing earlier.

But Torah does not mention about the destruction of the mountain.

If Torah is right Quran cannot be right and so on.

4) The discussion of memory skills of Arab literate applies to Arab Literates only. Mohammad is illiterate. Your argument does not apply to him.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jab: *
.....
4) The discussion of memory skills of Arab literate applies to Arab Literates only. Mohammad is illiterate. Your argument does not apply to him.
[/QUOTE]

No. Anyone can memorize anything, you don't have to be "literate" to be able to memorize. Besides, after his departure, he was not involved in recompiling Quran :)

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jab,

From your sporadic comments, what I can understand is that you are making an argument against Islam based on the testimonies of writer named Bilquies. I haven’t read that particular book as such but I have read a few others like it. There are many such testimonies against all religion and they are not hard to publish. I have read many such stories against Hinduism & Christianity as well etc. Though the ideal way into studying any religion is to read all sides of the story & especially from the source. For which I encourage you to read the two books The Essence of Islam and Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam to get the other side of the story.

The great thing about this book, Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam, is that it does not ditch/compare Islam with any other religion. Instead it particularly focuses on Islam & it’s teachings & explains through them the 4-5 basic spiritual questions faced by mankind thought our existence!

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Great read!

28

quote

by jab

Just the 4 books - Do you believe, Moses wrote Torah. How do you know Moses wrote Torah. Why should Muslims bother for Torah written by Moses.

Mr jab have u gone nuts or du just want ppl to make fun of u who the h.e.l.l told u tht Moses AS wrote torah, he just scripted what ws revealed to him by Allah Almighty

Seminole

ahmadjee, thank you for the explanation. But while I agree it is possible that ancient Arabs had memorization capabilities that far exceed the abilities of normal man, I maintain that is still not "evidence" to the 100% accurate compilation of Quran.

wot.. Sir Jee Allah Almighty him self took the responsibility of kepin the book safe and there is NO WAY even one word of this could have been change over these pat 1400 years and till Kayanat it can not b changed

"I God asked Jesus as to whether Jesus asked his followers to worship Jesus and Mary. and Jesus replied no I dont"

Would God the all knowing ask Jesus whether Jesus asked Mary to be worshipped.

Jab

That itself shows that part of Quran is not God's words. Quran is manipulated. Even Muhammad did not know Quran was manipulated if he was an illiterate.

How do u no it not Gods words are u power full than him to even no his secrets. and by the way how do u no it has been manupluated u hve only come in to this world (let me take an asumption ) no more than 100 years.

And how canu direspect the Beloved friend and Prophet of Allah whom he only mad 4 him self and made him even before Adam AS

Can i ask u a question jab r u a Muslim bec the way u have described things i cant really understand u, ie what kind fo a man would make his own fun in from of the Whole world ( every body has acess ot this Website around the world)

29

There you Go.

----------------------- Changez_like ------------------

Argument 1 : Muhammad is illiterate. His said first vision was after he was 35-40 years old. Khadijah was his first disciple.

  Argument  1.1  Khadeja  is from learned family.  Her uncle was a scholar in Torah.  Predicted a prophet would arise from his clan.  14 years age difference between Khadijah and Muhammad.

                 Result :  Muhammad had enough time 

                           to familiarise with  Torah and Gospel  by Reading through these two learned people.

                           to become a learned.

                 Result  :  Islam can as well be a precontemplated concept of Khadijah, her uncle, Muhammad  and her uncle.

                            Muhammad could have become literate.

                            Khadijah may not be the first disciple,  but the inventor.

                 Indication  :  The first Caliph was the second disciple of Muhammad.  He has been a person aspiring for power.  No doubt about this.

  After Muhammad's departure, the first Caliph had power to abuse the learned and change the religion in the way they want.

Argument 2 : Muhammad is literate. Muhammad read Bible. From here, allmost the same result as above.

--------------------------Ahmeedji-----------------------

I am not a preacher or pastor or any cleric of christianity. The people who are of my religion, do not consider me a religious person, because the one factor that might irritate them is that I am not a regular visitor to the place of worship of the religion my parents belong to.

1) Regarding her, Ms Sheikh, I read the book once in 1992 - 93. The question before her was

to believe Quran - where God is the Almighty

to believe Bible ( not Torah - old testament and new testament as she was having in her hand ) - where God, the Almighty is also your father.

Her narration is not the discussion here. Her choice was Bible.

2) The basic question that separates Judaism, Christianity or Islam remains to be the AUTHENTICITY of the books involved Torah, Bible and Quran.

Torah is accepted in its entirety by Bible and Quran

Gospel of Bible is accepted in its entirety by Quran.

Removing the parts of Torah and Gospel what remains in Quran need to be accepted by followers of Torah and Bible.

If Islam expects someone like me to accept Quran, then the contradictions between Torah and Bible on the one hand and Quran on the other hand needs to be explained and settled.

If Torah and Bible proove themselves right, then what is remaining is the acceptability of revised Quran.

Which was the argument.

3) Submit Islam to Jewish prophets - Accept Islam in full Torah and Gospel.

In John 24,25 and 26 Jesus asserts he is the Messiah. Muhammad must respect Jesus. Muhammad already accepted Gospel. Muhammad accepts to the extraordinary and exalted status of Jesus - to include before and after ascension. Interestingly it is the death that is being questioned by Muhammad ( a well planned attack on Jesus by Muhammad ). Not the ascension.

Then what problem does Islam have in Submitting itself to Jewish Prophets.

4) Muslims consider this post is as contradiction to Islam's faith, But Islam has two parts

a) Islam is supposed to confirm with Torah and Gospel and therefore reverred by Muslims as much as it does to the second part and then

b) it needs to be decided what is remaining in Quran after the confirmation as per (a) is related to God or is a way of life.

Muslims want only (b) not (a).

--------- Ahmadarsalan -----

1) So curious to know what religion I belong to. I will not say.

2) Just the 4 books - Moses was brought up by Pharoah's daughter. He could have been a Pharoah, if God willing. He is a learned person. No one debates as to whether Moses was a literate or not.

Torah says the first stone of God written by God himself was broken by Moses. No evidence could be found as to whether it was found. It was not the Mountain that was broken. It was those two stones, that Moses carried down the mountain. It is manageable - not capable of resulting in swooning of Moses. We can ask the archieologists to search for those stones burried somewhere or burnt or whatever.

But destruction of mountain of that magnitude will be an interesting geographyical occurrence.

But Quran does confirm that something was broken - but it feels that it was a mountain - no Islam for you it may be a mountain, for followers of Judaism and Christianity, it was the ten commandments.

The ten commandments are the only words written by God nothing else - either in Torah or in Bible or in Quran.

Moses remains the ONLY PERSON WHO SAW GOD'S WORDS. If Islam does not submit to Moses, Islam shall likewise Muhammad.

All others are written by men - some claim themselves prophets - in case of Moses it appears to be true, because he was able to visualise Petrol, as water, for the inheritance of Ishmael.

3) I am not able to understand the rest of your post.