RE: Some usefull information-mirzais

[Zalim]

Bao bihari, unfortunately the thread has been loacked (as usual) - anyhow just wants to say few words.

first i thank you for this particular scan and paste job, its been quite inspiring to me and this has brought me a step closer to Ahmadiyyat. – jazakallah click here ]](http://gim.gupshup.org/gal/H/17616380_5162395.JPG)

by the way I am amazed how dishonest person you are – you quoted loads of stuff without reading by yourself – scanned and pasted all the already underlined pages from your elders work. (someone has posted these pages in the past as well)

I wish you have an ounce of Taqwa – “IF” you have read any of those books with an honest heart you would have regretted of what you have been taught. You would have indeed found true gems like wise (BB: Mirza’s works have plenty of little gems like above..) On the other hand there are people who can find fault and errors in Quran as well the purest of All written words, though these are just words written by a human appointed by Allah.

Not putting references and mud-slinging has been an old trend of all the mocking guppies here. (BB: Verify these text at any qadiyani library). Glad you are preserving the tradition.

I know, you prefer to follow only one sided conversation – (BB: “I unfortunately do not have time to read your posts/justifications..) however I am writing this for the silent and honest readers.

Its not your fault, but your upbringing. For Muslims, in genearl, coming of a Prophet is like a curse and not a blessing. (though Quran and Sunnah over 1400yrs ago had already declared Imam Mahdi being a prophet). Need references?

Ever wondered why the Muslim ummah is so scattered in sects and sub-sects and is facing agony and despair throughout the world? Why Allah is not coming to their help? Cause Imam of the time has already come, you have not rejected him, but you have rejected the words of Allah and Holy Prophet who once said “accept him even if you have to crawl on your knees” – think and ask Allah – who is still ALIVE and TALKS, instead of asking your parents, your madarsas, your maulvi sahibs or your governments.

Remember, you will die and your children will die and your children’s children will die and neither will ever see Isa(as) descending from the sky or Imam Mahdi to appear. Again I say Ask Allah if you FEAR or if you carry TAQWA in your hearts

By the way just a Quote from the Words of Allah Almighty – 7:35
“O children of Adam! if there come to you messengers from among you rehearsing to you My revelations, those who are righteous and mend,- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve”.

*Jazakallah

PS1: for convenience here are the original books:

• Selected Books of The Promised Messiah, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
• Roohani Khazain – the 80 books written for the revival of Islam

PS2: Mods, Please let this be a an open discussion, for those who carry tolerance.

[AQ]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

@Zalim

Its not your fault, but your upbringing. For Muslims, in genearl, coming of a Prophet is like a curse and not a blessing. (though Quran and Sunnah over 1400yrs ago had already declared Imam Mahdi being a prophet). Need references?

Were the references revealed by the angel Techhi Techhi?

Can you also show the similarities or differences between Muselima Kadhaab and Muselima Punjab?

jazak ALLAH

[bao_bihari]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

@Zalim

Bao bihari, unfortunately the thread has been loacked (as usual) - anyhow just wants to say few words.

first i thank you for this particular scan and paste job, its been quite inspiring to me and this has brought me a step closer to Ahmadiyyat. – jazakallah click here ]](http://gim.gupshup.org/gal/H/17616380_5162395.JPG)

Enlighten me about what made you closer to ahmediyat , i read the page-and am more then convinced that the person was a liar.

by the way I am amazed how dishonest person you are – you quoted loads of stuff without reading by yourself – scanned and pasted all the already underlined pages from your elders work. (someone has posted these pages in the past as well)

If you had the time to read my first post of the thread, you would not have written this - i wrote “* I lately got hold of some mirzai books to see whether the qadiyani references given in our own books are true or otherwise* –”

Original editions are not easy to find–i found some of the original editions at a university library in karachi … rests from Moulana manzoor chinioti’s collection..

If you have objection as to the reliability of the text-just say so, and show the correct text from the original edition…very simple.

I wish you have an ounce of Taqwa – “IF” you have read any of those books with an honest heart you would have regretted of what you have been taught. You would have indeed found true gems like wise (BB: Mirza’s works have plenty of little gems like above..) On the other hand there are people who can find fault and errors in Quran as well the purest of All written words, though these are just words written by a human appointed by Allah.

Still no answers to some implied questions in my thread–
1-were these abuses given my mirza jee or not?
2-Were not mirza an english pathoo-- sorry but could’nt find a better word to suit.
my aim was not an all encompasing debate on mirza jee–it was just to prove what was written in our books is true alhumdolilah—not like mirzais who have misquoted many of our books ( tehzeer un nas by moulana qasim nanotavi in particular )

Not putting references and mud-slinging has been an old trend of all the mocking guppies here. (BB: Verify these text at any qadiyani library). Glad you are preserving the tradition.

I know, you prefer to follow only one sided conversation – (BB: “I unfortunately do not have time to read your posts/justifications..) however I am writing this for the silent and honest readers.

Lajawab had already answered that—i have just posted what mirza Jee said..

Remember, you will die and your children will die and your children’s children will die and neither will ever see Isa(as) descending from the sky or Imam Mahdi to appear. Again I say Ask Allah if you FEAR or if you carry TAQWA in your hearts

By the way just a Quote from the Words of Allah Almighty – 7:35
“O children of Adam! if there come to you messengers from among you rehearsing to you My revelations, those who are righteous and mend,- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve”.

*Jazakallah

Just quoted it for you----incase you copy pasted the stuff without reading it—

P.S----- worry not, you are perfectly LEGAL kafir ..

EDIT:

Just for your information—See what is writen under jhootay aadmi ki nashani
Kia bazari zaban hay-laholawalqouwatta
[thumb=H]jhootay%20aadmi%20ki%20nishani16380_7409056.JPG[/thumb]

[The_Hunk]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

Correct me if I’m wrong. Isn’t Masih Dajjaal supposed to come during the time of the Mahdi? So if the Mahdi’s come and gone, where’s the Masih Dajjaal ?

Was he so lame that we didn’t even notice him ?

[desi_angel]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

Very well said Zalim Bhai … and Hunk jee…please mind ur language (it can hurt someones feelings)

[AQ]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

@bao bihari

[thumb=H]jhootay%20aadmi%20ki%20nishani16380_7409056.JPG[/thumb]

kiyaa ma’arfat aur tehzeeb kay phool jhaR rahai haiN …

I am still trying to parse the diction of a sentence. So philosophical and so deep in meaning… literally deep as a matter of fact.. The article says:

…]JahaaN saY niklaY theY, waheeN daakhil ho jaataY haiN…

kiYaa dooor kee koRee hai janaab… poori biology samjhaa dee aik hee line maiN

[ammarr]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

Zalim, ok, you want an honest/tolerant discussion.. here goes.

I will start with these VERY BASIC questions (no references to ahmadi books, swearing etc.). We all believe in the Quran, and i suppose ahmadis also believe in the Sunnah of the Prophet (saws).. so these questions should be easy.

1. Clarify whether you believe him to be a prophet/reviver/anything else?

2. Where does the Quran/Sunnah indicate that we should expect a prophet/reviver. All evidences point to the coming of Eesa (as). I dont care for the examples provided by most ahmadis about how when the Prophet (saws) referred to Eesa, it actually meant (in some bizarre code:) Mirza Sahib. And I dont want the oft-quoted examples about how the hair color of Eesa (as) was red and the hadith refers to something else, etc. I want CLEAR WORDS INDICATING THAT I SHOULD EXPECT A REVIVER OTHER THAN EESA (AS).

(note: please read the book ‘Jesus will return’ at harunyahya.com)

3. Why did Abu Bakr (ra) send an army against the fake prophets? What differentiates them from Mirza Sahib?

4. Were all the companions (praised by the Quran, and about whom the Prophet (saws) said, cling to the sunnah of my rightly guided Caliphs, and that whoever is on the religion of Muhammad and his companions will be saved), and next three generations (about whom the Prophet (saws) said that falsehood will prevail after the first three generations), were they all wrong? Did none of them understand the “true islam”? Sure, they preserved the Sunnah of the Prophet, but they didn’t feel like preserving this VERY IMPORTANT MATTER of how there would be an upcoming Prophet, and more importantly, that Muhammad (saws) was NOT the last Prophet of Islam? Give me JUST ONE RECORD.. SAHEEH.. WITH A TRACEABLE ISNAAD going to the Prophet! Did NO ONE FROM the companions, or the next generations understand the correct meaning of ‘seal of Prophethood’?

5. Without quoting examples of swearing or talking of their authenticity or context, do you believe it is befitting for a Prophet to swear, or use indecent words for his enemies?

6. Since Allah tells us in the Quran that He (swt) has completed his favor upon us, then that obviously means that ISLAM IS COMPLETE. How can anyone comin’ or goin’ influence that then? Why does it matter for someone to believe or not believe in a later individual then?

There are lots more.. (infact many from the discussions i have observed even here on gupshup.. highlighted by trooper’s hilarious post about jinns being ‘germs’!).. but lets start with these. If you want people to accept mirza sahib, then this is the least of which you will have to prove.. no one’s gonna drop their current faith and go ‘I’m in!’ as soon as any guy claims Prophethood..

And in case you’re wondering why muslims have a hostile attitude towards ahmadi beliefs, then maybe they’re taking a book out of his own book.. as trooper explained in the other thread that Mirza sahib was swearing because he could not take the insult being placed on Prophet Muhammad (saws).. well, muslims believe that the biggest insult to the Prophet (saws) is when someone comes to override his message, so yes muslims are pissed off just cuz of this..

Edit:

Links: Jesus did not die: http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/did_not_die/jesus_did_not_die_01.php
Jesus will return: http://www.harunyahya.com/jesus01.php

[ammarr]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

And btw, the page you quoted at the very start.. well lets leave that for a later discussion.. cuz it is so entirely unsupported by the Quran or the Sunnah that its hard to say anything..

[FrozenFire]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

^^ as a matter of fact I know all the answers of the question that u have asked ammarr but unfortunately I just dont know how to put them in words... but seriously man if u talk to me face by face insh'allah i will try to answer all the questions that u have asked above.. and im sure u will not have any problem understand them

[FrozenFire]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

so u say that Jesus AS will return and yet you say that Hazrat Muhammad SAW is the last prophet..?

[FrozenFire]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

@ammarr

2. Where does the Quran/Sunnah indicate that we should expect a prophet/reviver. All evidences point to the coming of Eesa (as). ..

There was a time when the circumstances surrounding the crucifixion of Hadhrat Jesusas was a matter of great debate between Ahmadis and non-Ahmadi Muslims.

Whereas Ahmadi Muslims believe Hadhrat Jesusas was a prophet who died like all other human beings, a great majority of Muslims held the view that Hadhrat Jesusas was taken to Heaven by Allah and a Jesus-look-alike was crucified by the Jews instead.

Few non Ahmadi scholars today like to raise the topic of the death of Hadhrat Jesusas. To most it has become a non issue. They would rather vigorously propound their interpretation of khatam nabiyyin. It has become the “flavor of the month” so to speak. The majority of Muslims appear to be indifferent or just plain uninterested.

A more interesting change in the attitude of Muslim scholars has been in the total abandonment of the belief that Hadhrat Jesusas is alive in Heaven. Only recently I ordered books from the Juma Masjid in Toronto, the largest non-Ahmadi Mosque in Toronto. One book entitled “Myth of the Cross” by Al Hajj Ajijola gave full support to the Ahmadiyya view that Hadhrat Jesusas died a natural death. Similarly, well known Muslim scholars such as Ahmed Deedat back the Ahmadiyya position on Hadhrat Jesusas. Moreover, several commentaries of the Quran from Egypt, one of them endorsed by Al Azhar, now interpret the verses regarding the death of Hadhrat Jesusas as Ahmadis do.

The so-called orthodox Muslim belief that a Jesus-look-alike was crucified instead of Hadhrat Jesusas, and that Hadhrat Jesusas was raised to heaven, to descend a later day, has no support in the Holy Quran. The origin of this popular belief is from Christian sources, as I will show in a future article.
The Quran is quite clear that Hadhrat Jesusas has passed away, and gives no support to the concept of Hadhrat Jesusas physically going to heaven. Some specific verses will now be considered:

**“Jesus said, I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be and has enjoined on me prayer and alms-giving so long as I live. He has made me dutiful toward my mother, and He has not made me haughty and unblessed. Peace was on me the day I was born, and peace there shall be on the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.” (19:31-4) **
The verse shows Hadhrat Jesusas must have died, and could not exist in heaven with his physical body:

If he was still alive, he would have to give alms in heaven, but who would need alms there?
If he would descend again to earth alive, he would have to follow the Jewish prescriptions on both prayer and alms-giving - and could not be a follower of Islamic law.
Did his mother accompany him to heaven physically? How could he otherwise behave like a dutiful son towards her?

[ammarr]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

@FrozenFire

so u say that Jesus AS will return and yet you say that Hazrat Muhammad SAW is the last prophet..?

Yes, because Eesa (as) is not a new Prophet..

[FrozenFire]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

@ammarr

Yes, because Eesa (as) is not a new Prophet..

oooooo man come on! open your eyes… If u believe that Muhammad PBUH was the greatest prophet of all then how come Allah swt gave him death and not hazrat Eisa AS?

if u can understand Urdu here listen to this http://alislam.org/multimedia/qa/play.php?id=8 …

[ammarr]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

^-- uff toba yar.. not that dumb reason again.. do you really believe i would fall for something like that? Every Prophet has had their miracles, its not a competition of who was the best.. had hotee hai bewaqofee kee..

[gupguppy]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

@FrozenFire

If he was still alive, he would have to give alms in heaven, but who would need alms there?

one gives zakat when circumstances permit… this rule applies to everyone…

If he would descend again to earth alive, he would have to follow the Jewish prescriptions on both prayer and alms-giving - and could not be a follower of Islamic law.

he will follow the shariah of the Muslim ummah in which he descends

Did his mother accompany him to heaven physically? How could he otherwise behave like a dutiful son towards her?

there are many ways to be dutiful to one’s mother or father without the need for them to be physically present… think about it

[FrozenFire]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

Zalim , Please make a minor change to this thread's name... change mirzais to ahmadi muslims thanks , will appreciate it

[desi_angel]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

@FrozenFire

Zalim , Please make a minor change to this thread’s name… change mirzais to ahmadi muslims thanks , will appreciate it

i was going to suggest the same

[FrozenFire]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

@ammarr

^-- uff toba yar.. not that dumb reason again.. do you really believe i would fall for something like that? Every Prophet has had their miracles, its not a competition of who was the best.. had hotee hai bewaqofee kee..

do u believe sab nabbiyon ka sardar hazrat muhammad PBUH?

[gupguppy]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

^ Your logic is pretty naive... just because Prophet Muhammad (saw) didn't share in all of the miracles of other prophets doesn't make him in any way inferior overall... he was conceived normally, Prophet Isa (as) wasn't... what does that prove in the context of a discussion on whether Prophet Isa (as) was raised or will descend?

I suppose according to you Prophet Muhammad (saw) is inferior because surah Muhammad in the Qur'an is but 38 verses yet surahs named after other prophets, such as Yunus (109 verses) and Yusuf (111 verses), are longer!

[FrozenFire]

Re: Some usefull information-mirzais

.