RE: "Ahmadis and Qadiani" - [appkiamaanat]

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

here are my two cents to your query…

First: we, are called Ahmadis, NOT because we follow Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as), in fact we are called so because of Ahmad(saw). Holy Prophet(saw) has two names, Mohammad and Ahmad…

Secondly: we are called Qadians, not because we are born or live in Qadian but because we follow the person who was born in Qadian. This is the same as Followers of Jesus of Nazareth are called Nazarites (in urdu nasara).. yet another similarity between the Muslim Messiah and the Hebrew Messiah.

2

Waisay, I have always wondered, what did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad brought to the table? In what way it was significantly unique and novel in terms of something missing in the existing Islamic teachings that people needed to follow him? Or people just follow him just 'cause they believe he was a prophet?

Along the same lines, if someone else gets up and says, "hey, I'm a prophet", would the same people follow him too?

Please, no book references, just your own grasp of the matter.

3

Prophets don't always bring something new to the table, only a few were blessed with new teachings with evolution of the human race, while the rest only preached what their predecessors taught. Mirza Sahib claimed that he didn't bring anything new but was ordained by God to bring back the true teachings of Islam which have faded away through centuries. And so he was like Jesus unto the Muslims, like Jesus of Nazareth was onto the Jews. As the first Jesus said "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets: I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." So, were the teachings of Mirza Sahib. When there are 100 different interpretations of one verse in the Holy Quran, how do you tell which one is correct. Only a divinely guided person can tell the difference!

Then was the question of how to revive the sad state of the Muslim Ummah. When Jesus suggested to the Jews that to bring back the glory of the Jewish state one must strive to bring the Kingdom of God this earth they laughed at him. And said if he was the true Messiah, he would lead them to victory against the Romans. Similarly, Mirza Sahib argued that it's not the sword that will bring you glory, as it wasn't the sword that brought Muslims glory the first time around. It was submission to Allah and by being pious Muslims! And likewise the Muslims questioned him if he was Messiah then he should lead the sword fight against the 'infidels'.

Not to mention the true blessings of Khila'fat that were brought back to this earth!

4

So Ahmadjee, if someone else claims prophethood now, would you follow him too?

5

Roman Bhai, whoever claims to be the prophet has to be analyzed based on their claim! The litmus of authenticity will be the belief-set that is put forward.

Ahmadies believe that if the majority of them also fade away from the true teachings of Islam, Allah will bring up another group/individual that will carry on His message. There are no chosen people, only those who chose God.

6

So what was the litmus test in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's case? And how did it get validated?

Ahmadies believe that if the majority of them also fade away from the true teachings of Islam, Allah will bring up another group/individual that will carry on His message.

Given the above statement, and looking at how Ahmadi-Muslims and Non-Ahmadi-Muslims are disintegrated (or faded away, as you put it) would you say that the circumstances are present under which another prophet needed to be brought up? In other words, since all the Muslims (according to your belief) are supposed to follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and since majority of them (non-Ahmadi-Muslims) don't, then do you think if someone claims to be a prophet to unite and propagate the Islamic message, he'd make a "valid" prophet? Would you follow him?

7

Well, I personally don't care how many prophets one follows and how many one doesn't. Whatever floats your boat. But the point here is that both Ahmadi-Muslims and Non-Ahmadi-Muslims are basically bunch of defensive groups. They are pretty much alike in essence. They both seek validity of their beliefs from the other group.

Ahmadi-Muslims are as much intolerant or unaccepting to a "new coming" prophet as non-Ahmadi-Muslims are to anyone after Mohammad.

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
Prophets don't always bring something new to the table, only a few were blessed with new teachings with evolution of the human race, while the rest only preached what their predecessors taught. Mirza Sahib claimed that he didn't bring anything new but was ordained by God to bring back the true teachings of Islam which have faded away through centuries.
[/QUOTE]

In our understanding message of Islam would remain till end of times.. and authencity of Quran is a proof of that.. even if some people go away from true spirit of Islam it doesnt mean there has become a vacuum in true following of Islam!

Can u please explain and list what those true teachings of Mirza sahib are? and what we non-Ahmadis are not following in respect to Quran and sunnah?

9

Roman, I feel the same way. I wish there were a lot more prophets, and not just a handful (although it is believed by Muslims that there were over a 100 thousands). Jews only believe in 4 or so prophets (the rest are minor prophets according to their beliefs - pretty much like Extras in the movies.

Being stubborn in one's beliefs is the pre-requisite of being a believer. It takes a lot of shaking up to do for one's to accept new ideas and stuff, as doing so somehow makes them doubt their own belief system. That's why people like you and myself (and that Hindu) believe that we are all right, in our way.

My Guruji says that there's only one way to learn, and it has 3 stages. (1) you practice it (called Riyaz), and (2) you Master it; and (3) you forget about it. The first part is very easy, it only takes a few tries. The 2nd part is very hard, it takes a lifetime, and still one cannot achieve the eminence, and the final part (forget about it) is very very easy one, but very few people get to achieve that. Prophets are those who have forgotten about it. Selfless people, and infact, this is what the Buddhist belief system is.

Smoothy, why? Prophets don't come with balls?

10

Prophets are those who have forgotten about it

That’s a statement of the day :k:

11

Roman Bhai,

There are many litmus tests, one of them is the treatment of the claimant before & after his claim.

For example, the Holy Prophet (saw) was considered to be the truthful & trust-worthy by everyone who knew him. The people would ask him to give judgments in dispute and respected him greatly. But the minute he claimed to be a prophet, his own very family, his tribe turned against him. But even afterwards they couldn't deny his moral standards. Similarly, Mirza Sahib was hailed as the champion of Islam before he claimed to be a prophet. People would request him to do speech duals with Ariah & Christian missionaries in defense of Islam. They used to present him as picture of a true Muslim. Some of the Molvies who became the most fierce opponents where the same who wrote pages after pages of praise regarding his first book Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya. But the minute he claimed to be a prophet, the whole world changed. Part of his own family disowned him and the whole world turned against him! But yet ... he still continues to grow!! That's the triditions of a true prophet and his followers!

If you don't know, Mormons consider Joseph Smith to be the prophet or an apostle after Jesus. I have talked to their priests quiet often and still attend their meetings. In one of the meetings I gave them the above example and asked them about the early life of Joseph Smith, and they didn't have a clue.

As far as your second question is concerned, I beg to differ that there is no distinction between Ahmadis & Non-Ahmadies. When I made the distinction before, I used the word majority and it is my belief that the reason Ahmadiyya community continues to grow is because in general, the majority of them adhere to the true teachings of Islam! And the day, that majority turns into a minority or fades away, Allah will either send a new prophet or the world will come to an end!

12

I used the word majority and it is my belief that the reason Ahmadiyya community continues to grow is because in general, the majority of them adhere to the true teachings of Islam! And the day, that majority turns into a minority or fades away, Allah will either send a new prophet or the world will come to an end!

I don't get this one. Why are you considering majority within Ahmadis? Do they have a different god?

BTW, I'm considered to be truthful and trust-worty by overyone who knows me too ;)

13

Majority because not 100% of the followers accept their phophet/imam/rabi because they understand his teachings and go by it. Some accept him cos he looks truthful, others because all their family did it & so did they, etc.

In other words, it's no fault of Jesus if one of his own chosen disciple Judas betrayed him, the others like Steven give away their life for him! It's no fault of Noah if his son wouldn't let go of his evil ways, nor is it a argument against his claim! Similarly, if some of the Muslims at the time of AnHazoor (saw) didn't follow Islam as he preached, it doesn't mean he is wrong in his claim or failed in his mission! Prophets come to warn people and tell them about the truth & show with their own example how to live life!! Every man who listens has to make his or her own choices.

14

Ahmadji bhaijaan, you're missing the point. What I'm asking is that, from looking at god's point of view, Muslim world as whole is divided among various sects/beliefs etc. The situation is no different than how it was when Mirza Ghulam Ahmadi proclaimed prophethood. Given that, won't you think that it's pretty much about time that another prophet be sent? And if he is sent, what criteria you'd establish to make sure he's one sent by god? And once that criteria is satisfied, would you follow him too like you follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?

15

Bhai mairay, pehlon ko to maan lo.. if any prophet has to come later, let those people deal with it for whom he will be sent..

16

Roman Bhaijaan, you and I differ in the opinion that the situation isn't any different. IMO, for those who accepted Mirza Sahib and truely follow his teachings, the difference in their life is pretty clear.

If you think that God should keep sending prophets one after another until the difference occurs, then please consult God with your concerns.

17

So Ahmadji bhaijaan, are you saying that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the last prophet and there won't be anymore prophets?

BTW, same could be said about Mohammad too -- that those who accepted him and truely follow his teachings, the difference in their life is pretty clear. So we are again at the square one, ie, why follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmad if you've got Mohammad?

18

Roman ko Zalim ka salam, good to see you are still alive n'kicking..

so let me give you the same perspective from a different angle, hope this may help you in understanding my point of view.

everyday in every namaz we read.. "ehdinas siratal mustaqeem".. what is this "straight path"?.. Quran translate this as "pray to One God, who is my God and your God and this is the siratalmustaqeem"... till now about 124k prophets have been sent to this human specie (aka ashafulmakhlookaat), the sole purpose of all was not to present something unique or novel but to pull the deviated, morally corrupted and ethically deprived humanity towards one right path. So is the case of this Messiah, at this time of the world, where you see agony and despair everywhere, there are very few who fear God and remember Him, definitely at this chaotic time there is a need of someone if not a Prophet. This is not my theory, there are evidences in all the religions that in the later days there will come a reformer. Imagine if there come a reformer in every faith, each will rise and collide with other.

What did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad brought to the table?.. what he bought is not something new.. its the same old teachings which Holy Prophet had presented some 1400 years ago, despite of the perfect book, the teaching therein are now mere hidden treasure.. the litmus proof is the division of Islam in so many assorted sects... everyone makes his own interpretation according to his/her desires.. number of example are seen everyday for example on this forum... some think jinns are super creatures, some think muta is street legal, some think my god is better than yours, even some think "ya ali maddad" is a very potent nuskha. one book and so many diverse ideologies... do you still think this Un-tainted Book is giving you any benefit? are you teachings still pure? NO, definitely you need someone. And that's why you all are eagerly awaiting for an IMAM MAHDI to remove the dust that has encrusted the Islam for over 1400 years.

Quoting Quran is very easy, just press Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V and viola!.. understanding It is very hard... the very first verses says "hudal-lil-mutaqeen" i.e this book is a guidance for the righteous only, so we must become righteous to unveil its hidden aspects, without that its useless.

So again the only Purpose of Prophets is to revive the humanity and to bring them nearer to God, and that's the take home message from that man you call kafir.

and yes if any Prophet come in our lives, we will accept him, because we follow Quran and thats what it says... " O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve."....

19

Bhaijaan, it is not me who decides when a prophet should come or should not. But as a matter of belief, I do believe more prophets can come at anytime. Mirza Sahib prophesized that after him will be divinely guided khilafa'at which in it's entirety will be a reflection of those who chose & accept that Khilafa'at! As long as the followers will be pious, their Khalifa will be too, and so will be guided by Allah!

You argue that as in your opinion it's not good enough and as the situation of a world isn't very different from when Mirza Sahib came, there should be another prophet right now. And I told you if God chose to send another one I will accept him. You insist that he should come right now, and for that I suggested you should consult God Himself as I don't make those decisions.

20

But, but, but, don't you think this whole coming of more and more prophets does more harm than any good? After all, everytime you see a prophet popping up, you see more divided people than not. I mean, we are all divided already, ain't we? Four books from same god, and some 120k prophets. How much did that leave us united? More on so, how much coming of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad left us united? Only more divided, right?