Re: Rape and emotions
how about "typical"?
Kodiak...i know, strange!
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Of course it does not suit me. I have some Freudian sympathies. So what you first say, is what you really mean. Thank you for the labeling. Semantics are everything. Later.
Re: Rape and emotions
Sarah don;t take everything so personally. By normal I did mean an average person.
Re: Rape and emotions
getting back to the discussion, sarah, how do you account for the similar reaction of males to rape. you have kodiak's personal account here, analyze that when you come back to this thread
Re: Rape and emotions
Ravage, in short, without even reading his account: where are the men's distress centers? The societal reaction to rape of men is laughter for the most part.
And haven't you read Kant? And all his stuff on emotions? Here is the key to my point: emotivism.
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no i havent read Kant or all of his stuff on emotions, why do you want me to feel sad about my intellectual inadequacy :(
i dont think its about laughter sarah. it is the same reason FF cites (and to suggest that Kodiak's distress was all about laughter without reading it isnt very nice). one's body is a very private thing, and the idea of its violation and percieving it to be degraded is abhorrent. people have difficulty accepting it occurred to them just as they have difficulty accepting any other idea they hate, adding to that the violent nature of it.
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It takes a man to know how society reacts to men.
Im not aware of Kant, but im aware of how guys treat guys. I've never told guys publically because its a huge taboo. Probably bigger than women being raped. How many times do you hear of guys being raped ? Let me guess..almost never..and its because most guys really do hide it, despite it occuring a lot more often than commonly thought. They hide it because people will look at them differently after that.
Society says young men who are raped grow up to become homosexuals and rapists / sadists themselves. Society gives examples of serial killers and molestors who were raped as kids and had a very abusive childhood and it stops at that.
The catholic molestation scandal was almost entirely based on priests raping boys, yet this thing didnt surface until recently because most boys / men never came forward, too afraid of societies backlash.
The west is more forgiving in this sense, over here it is more ok to be raped, people still accept you. Back in pakistan thats not the case.
Re: Rape and emotions
let her do her exam guys :p
Re: Rape and emotions
The problem in certain societies( I am not gonna mention which)is that men are looked at as Animals and sex is hated so much by women for either religious reasons or other that anytime a woman has sex with a man even if its consensual she feels embarrased and raped.I think the problem in a society like that lies in the evil mentality of women which refuses to respect and love men, and not with men.Even in more liberal socities of the world where religion does'nt play a role in everything,mentality of certain women is not too different and we see decent men getting accused of rape or sexual harassment for noting ,example,bill clinton,arnold shwarznegger etc.I think women have to sort out the confusion in their head about when it is right for a man to touch them.The fact that a 'no' from a woman can sometimes means yes makes this whole issue of sexual harassment and rape even more complicated.
Re: Rape and emotions
I agree totally with Sarah. I dont have the language skills to argue as elequently as she can, so Ill leave it at that. I will however add that it is (imo) because we cannot dissociate women from their breasts that female rape occurs. Female rape is about the sexual domination of men, power of the penis, the sword etc. It is because the "sheath" has been breached that there is such horror - or even that pleasure, gained from it. Sex is in its most basic. a fundamental conquest, possession. Not making love, but the act of sex itself. That is not to say that the violation of ones private space does not play a part. But rather, although it may be the main reason behind it - its impossible to ignore ulterior arguments.
On the other point, of the rape of men. The rape of men brings up issues of control and masculinity, it is taboo for a man **to be the victim of same sex rape as it holds connotations of **feminine weakness. He wasn't (for once) the one doing the fking, but rather being fked.
I was quite surprised that in Pakistan, there appears to be a cuss word for the man who is passive in a gay relationship, ie the one who "takes it".
Femme, I agree with Sarah on the point of Normality, it seemed from the fashion of your argument that you percieved one who did not crumble as one which was not quite "right". Perhaps the problem was with the tone rather than overt sensitivity.
Re: Rape and emotions
?
I wonder if someone from your own cult was molested you would blame them or the perpretrator, who would be evil there? Lets be frank, what if this abhorant act was of somone who was in direct linage to you, would that evilness be inherent in them also - would they be the agressors (albiet passive) and not the vistims?
Lets not be coy here, of course it is the perpretrator to be blamed, you own the women of your tribe, it is not their experience or health that is a matter of concern to you - but rather the violation of your personal possesion. In all other cases it is the entity of the tere paslee that is the blame, the source of original sin.
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I think its both of you who are associating negative connotations with what I said. Since normal is a relative term I'll refrain from using it. 'Generally' excessive pressure stresses people out, someone who can get through pressure without letting stress buildup is by no means inferior. Similarly a person who does not let something as serious as a rape weaken their spirit is definitely strong. More people cave in and that is the typical reaction to rape. There are not too many mukhtaran mai's out there who will fight for justice and speak up but more of those who will hide themselves out of shame. No one is endorsing the latter.
Subsitute normal with generally or typically and u'll get what I was trying to say. Rape is about the manifestation of power. So whether its a woman being raped by a man, a man by a man or a man by a woman, the victim is always the weaker one. I don;t even believe it is possible for any human to not have atleast an emotional reaction to such an exploitation be it a man or a woman. Sarah however says that she would not resist at all and be merry the next day and just carry on with her life. It seems like her point is that if rape happens it is no big deal, ur sexual organ is not the centre of your life and if it has been violated then big deal! Such an attitude is not prevelant in the majority. For a majority of the people rape will give birth to distress and agony. There is nothing wrong with it and it is not due to social or legal requirements that people go through the trauma.
The law sarah refers to is not even in place anymore from what i gathered. What I would think about a woman who did not resist a rape and was merry the next day? Her ability to carry on with her life would be a sign of strength but her decision to let the perpetrator carry on with his job...that is something I would never be able to relate to and honestly the woman's reaction or lack of would be beyond me. Physical struggle aside I find it hard to believe that their would be an absence of emotions too. I wouldn;t pass moral judgements implying she may have enjoyed it or actually wanted it just because she let it happen. But in my opinion it takes extreme detachment or extreme weakness to allow a rape. Women who experience disturbance after rape do'nt feel so just because they are attaching undue importance to their genitals or because they consider their genitals to be their identity or something, its simply because its a violation of something that is most private to them. People have trouble trusting other after their trust has been breeched, so ur body is definitely of some importance.
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Im glad that you felt strongly enough to explain at lenght, in future however it will be sufficient to simply check the tone of sucha sensitive word such as "normal" and the context of its use. I agree with Ravage, typical is better suited.
"Merry" is annother interesting term, one that I havnt read elsewhere in the entirity of this thread.
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FF, of course there can be a complete lack of emotions. On the other hand, there is an overabundance of female distress centers and crisis lines. I have a psychology degree and I have worked with psychologists. As soon as they encounter the word "rape", "sexual abuse" with their patients, they assume trauma. They expect trauma. They expect PTSD, they expect a host of other problems (like pseudoseizures, borderline personality disorder). The normal reaction to rape and abuse is expected to be distress. Lenora Walker explains it quite well in the case of domestic abuse, the whole pathologizing of women who have been abused. We don't want these women to help themselves, if they do, they are deviant. We want them to be in distress. Shoot me, but there is nothing spectacular about rape. Call me nihilistic but there is nothing there. There is the clitoris there but no one talks about that. I find it very symbolic that that hole is expected to dictate our lives and identities. I would rather focus on my mind rather than what has been inserted into my vagina. Yes that's crass, I find the expectation that I break down to be crass as well, and insulting to me.
I agree with hiccup completely, there is nothing special about male rape, it's just the reduction of a man to femininity when he is raped by another man. He is not expected to voice his emotions because that would make him a woman. His rape almost makes him impotent. There are no distress centers for men. There are no hotlines for men who have been raped. In the hospital where I work, there is no discussion of men's sexually abused past. It is mentioned in passing, not belabored to form trajectories for future emotions and coping styles as it is for women.
I am a Kantian. On some days I am rather fond of Hume, who is Kant inverted. Kant constructed emotions as the very polar opposite of reason. He termed emotions as a weakness. They are capricious. He said emotions do not belong in the legal system because they make what ought to be objective, subjective, they color. Emotions are base. They reduce. They stunt. I can go on and on about this and emotivism but I would rather with someone who is into philosophy rather than with people who will jump at my views on rape. To repeat my point again, when we expect women to be distressed, we expect their emotions to overrule them. We focus on their cunts and we reduce them to that. We reduce them to emotions instead of focusing on their mind. To be redundant, why is there so much outrage at rape but relatively barely any in other instances of female subjugation like low rates of literacy, lower pay, inequality of opportunity, inequality of result, ontological inequality. Why no focus on the mind. Emphasis on emotions subjugates women. It makes them infantile. It takes justice out of their hands. We tell women, in order to believe you have been raped, you must be in tears, you must be in shambles. This is not about the genitals per se, as exciting as they are, but rather about what is expected of women, what we almost demand for them, how we label them if they do not display "appropriate" emotions. Lenora Walker really does explain it much better than I can. The point is we pathologize women before we vidicate them. She must be battered beyond belief, her spirit broken, her face ripped, her skin in tatters before she can rise.
I will also go as far as to say that rape is not about violation of personal space. It is violation of space intended for one man. How very patriarchal.
Re: Rape and emotions
It seems like her point is that if rape happens it is no big deal, ur sexual organ is not the centre of your life and if it has been violated then big deal! Such an attitude is not prevelant in the majority. For a majority of the people rape will give birth to distress and agony. There is nothing wrong with it and it is not due to social or legal requirements that people go through the trauma.
Women who experience disturbance after rape do'nt feel so just because they are attaching undue importance to their genitals or because their genitals are identity or something<<<<<<<
I am unaware of what Sarah was trying to say, or even her intention upon opening the thread, however as far as I am concerned, the parts I have highlighted are the subject of question rather thanstated fact. I am unaware of any reason other than my genitals for which I am classed into a sex, and that above all: religion creed or colour is my identity. This should not be a the case and thus I woner if the importance we place on such a thing is indeed undue.
The social and so forth requirements are also questionable, why else is sex subject to so much debate if not due to social and cultural attitudes? Without any importance granted to sex or bodily things, would rape even occur? And if it were to still be a phenomenon - would it manifest itself differently?
Re: Rape and emotions
Read carefully a second time and u won;t miss it.
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I don't think that if I was raped today and was all merry tomorrow, that anyone would see the act as rape<<< found it.
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I don't see rape as inconsequential and of no great import. That was not the point of the thread. The point was that by focusing on emotions and expecting them, we limit women. Because I believe it is a social construction, the value women attach to their genitals and how their feminity (NOT femaleness) depends on them. That by focusing on the vagina above the mind, we limit women.
Re: Rape and emotions
ok in a way i agree with femme too...it is usually a belief system they grow up with that makes their bodies and what is done to it private and sorta sacred. everyone isnt as successful in stripping off emotions.
sarah im kinda confused. are you saying ..if we strip ourselves of "emotions" related to rape, then rape isnt a big deal...therefore rape is not as big of a crime and it shouldnt be punished as severely? is this the only way society will accept a raped woman as 'untainted' in your opinion?
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I never said anything anywhere regarding how rape should or should not be punished. I just said encourage strength. Weakness and expecting a breakdown is constructed, like a self-fulfilling prophecy, so strength can be constructed too.