View taken by many sects and getting popularity amongst those who wants a free hand in religion.
I’ve even heard from some people that concept of afterlife (Aakhirat) is also a metaphor. Seriously! One third of Quran is full of verses related to Aakhirat and someone believes that its just a metaphor.
How do you see this trend? who were the people who introduced this concept of metaphor regarding Quran. I heard people like Sir Syed Ahmed Khan were also supporter of this thought.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
He denied that Jesus was given healing powers and when he gave live to death then death here means Kufr (كفر) and live here mean Iman (ايمان), so Jesus brought them from Kufr to Iman. Or when Allah (swt) showed Ibrahim how he brings dead birds back to live, it was Ibrahim’s dream, and Mohammad (pbuh) was taken to Mairaj (معراج) during his dream etc. He denied that army of Abraha (ابراهه) died after being attacked by birds, rather they died due to smallpox disease. He denied that in Badr Battle Allah swt sent angles to help the Prophet (pbuh). He also denied returning of Jesus.
One would like to ask Syed Ahmed that if for the sake of argument we take his opinion, then we have right to ask that what was stopping Allah (swt) to explain these historical events in same light as Syed Ahmed explains? If Syed Ahmed can explain it then so as Allah (swt). If Jesus was born with father, why would Allah (swt) not say it so in Quran, If Ibrahim was day dreaming, why would Allah (swt) not say so?, if Army of Abraha died of smallpox why would Allah mention that birds (أبابيل) stroked them with stone of hard clay.
Sir Syed Ahmed Khan’s religious view
Just a sample, how this approach start declaring things as metaphor.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
Quran describes those people in the Quran itself. :)
There have always been people who prevented others from learning/implementing Quran in their lives. They have evolved overtime. You can be a muslim, but Islam may not be in you. You can be a non-muslim; yet closer to the teachings of Islam, all that remains is to testify and enter the fold of Islam.
This phenomenon is a blessing in disguise. You can't charge a person with a crime until he/she has confessed it. Allah is Just and Fair, and would use the confessions of the people against them on the day of judgement when lips will be sealed and Hearts/Hands/Eyes/Legs/Limbs will testify and only truth will surface. Mouth and Hearts will not coordinate to put out an eloquent lie to hide behind.
The reason I say this trend is a blessing in disguise is no different than exposition of munafiqeen of Madinah Munawwara who would insist that a verse should come that orders them to fight so that they may prove their loyalty to Islam; yet when the verses were revealed they either made excuses and didn't attend the ghazawat, or went halfheartedly and came back vocally against going in the first place. This is how Allah destines to separate people of varying degrees. What you say today may change tomorrow, you can deny it or claim it was taken out of context, but what's in your heart will remain.
We're all really just testifying to our own Iman when we make statements regarding the Most Direct, the Most Precise, and the Most Comprehensive book of all times; the Quran.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
Exactly.. when we call a book Furqaan (one which distinguish good from bad), how could be one-third of the same book dealing with Aakhirat and around 1/3 dealing with the Prophets, their preaching, their miracles be metaphorical.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
Two things, as I see it:
-Some people are truly in error, and just do not realize it. In that case, the blame is not on them but their sources of information. It’s just dishonest on their part to not verify something before believing.
-Others who indulge in this behavior are those who find themselves among the wrongdoers when they read Quran, so for the safety of their own nafs and to convince themselves that they’re doing fine, they would invent and concoct things that give the verses a meaning that is closer to their heart’s desires.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
one who says that there are only metaphors and moral stories in Quran is not right
one who says that everything mentioned in the Quran should be taken literally is not right as well. At many places, metaphors have been used in the holy Quran.
As far as sir syed ahmed is concerned, perhaps he tried bridge the gap between belief and reason at the onset of age of information, reason and logic. He placed contemporary understanding/knowledge as a criteria to interpret Quranic verses. He may be right at some points but his direction of thought was not right.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
Reference to the incident of Ibrahim (as) was given. Here is the translation of the verse 2:260
And remember when Ibrahim said, ‘My Lord, show me how Thou givest life to the dead.’ He said, ‘Hast thou not believed?’ He said, ‘Yes, but I ask this that my heart may be at rest.’ He answered, ‘Take four birds and make them attached to thyself. Then put each of them on a hill; then call them; they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.’
more translations are provided here
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/260/default.htm
Now please give me your understanding of this verse how have you understood that Allah showed/explained life after death to Ibrahim(as)
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
isn’t it the same thought as mentioned for Ashab e Kahaf and Uzair’s donkey, who wake up after hundred years.
Birds were slaughtered and their remains were put on hill and when Ibrahim (AS) called them they came to him, proving that Allah is all powerful to make dead alive. Kuffar e Makkah used to astonished with the concept that they will be made alive on day of judgement after they have become part of dust. All these verses were revealed to let people know that day of judgement is a reality when dead will be alive. This thought is not just present in few verses, it is part of 1/3 of Quran.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
Dear friends, before we could discuss personalities and aqeedahs we need to understand nature of what information is and what understanding of information is and how we come to understanding of anything at all. This is called nit picking and baal ki khaal utaarna. Not only that such discussions need a totally open forum but also that level of people. A people who take learning and discovering ideas and things as their goal to move forward and not take it as mud slinging match full of nonsense.
What is information., do we discover it or does it come to us or is it a bit of both but in what order?
To think about such questions is very important because then we come to realise difficulty and hard work involved in all this process. Once we come to know answers to such questions only then we can appreciate what difficulties we ourselves have been through and what difficulties and hard works others have done in this regard and that is why we are where we are because of contributions of each and every person whether we know people personally or not. The world of knowledge we have inherited we did not created it nor did we create ourselves. So information whatever we have and whatever we are going to discover is just an effort of discovery on our part. Some discover more of it others less depending on our individual circumstances and situations.
The basic fact no matter what is that we either get information or it is fed to us ie we either learn things by ourselves or we are taught things by others to us.
when we learn things ourselves, we have our own reasons to do so and when others teach us they have their reasons to teach us and we have our reason to learn it.
Why we learn things, why we learn one thing rather than another, why others teach us what they teach us, why they teach us one thing rather than the other? We must think about these like questions, why? It is because then we come to realise we have motives and agendas to satisfy.
When we come to realise these like things then we become aware of problems and pitfalls which we should avoid so that our conclusions become satisfactory rather than biased and prejudiced unsatisfactory and confused leaving us in lurch.
Talking about sir syed in isolation for satisfying one's bias based on nonsense is not the right way to go about it. One needs to know information about that time to place sir syed in context.
The question we need to ask ourselves are; what was state of muslims at that time in india and around the globe. What was role of muslim rulers and mullahs and masses and what other parties were at work and why and how it ali affected muslims and how they were able to come out of that situation?
The problem with most of us is that we take things as black and white but that is never a reality. World is what it is and people are what they are. Ideologically we can have a starting point and we can have a finishing point. But we must never overlook the middle bit or the grey area.
We each start from somewhere therefore we cannot dispute that. However, we must question where we are going from where we are and why we are going where we are going? If we could help it we should never have started our journey without knowing where we are going but that is where we are lost. That is because once we are born we start our journey without knowing where we are going. Ask yourself if you knew where you were heading and that will sort the problem out for you.
Mankind were on the move as soon as they were born but they did not know where they were going. It took them ages to become self aware and the reason is they are self learning robots to begin with. They are unable to learn about their own environment till they become self aware to that degree whereat they can learn about other things. It takes years for us to learn how to wipe our back sides properly. This is why we are not in school as soon as we are born because we know we cannot learn things we are taught at school level at that age and we need more experience and leaning before school age. Even when we are of schooling age, we do not start at the very end instead we start at the very beginning and as time goes on if we are interested in learning we complete our school education. All this shows our development in stages with time and effort we put in doing things.
This means you do not end up at the end of your learning journey as soon as you start rather it takes its time and your effort or hard work. This being the case how right are we to dismiss people about their views and their contributions to human society?
Why we expect others to be Gods but it is ok to be as we are for ourselves? Why do we expect people to not to make any mistakes when this is not even our own life experience about ourselves and others who develop right before our own eyes eg our younger brothers and sisters and our own children etc? Not only that it is not human to not to go through trials and errors in learning process. This is the way we humans are designed to be. There is nothing inherently wrong with this process itself.
What we need to learn is to appreciate is what each of us has managed to learn and better ourselves and each other. We need to put ourselves in a frame of mind whereby we look at each other as humans full of mistakes but some of us getting better of themselves and rising above the rest in minimising their mistakes or overcoming them. It seems we have been indoctrinated through make beliefs to think we were perfect in every way right from the start but we have fallen from that perfection, the question is, how could we be perfect if we fell down? What kind of perfection was that which fell apart at first trial? If being perfect we have fallen apart then what gives us hope that being broken into pieces we are going to become perfect? Is it therefore not better to accept that we were not perfect at the beginning but we are becoming perfect through learning and practice? This is what we are looking at when each baby comes into this world and starts his journey of discovery. As one learns so one improves oneself and that is why there can be hope that one day man can rise to a level that he will be surprised himself.
So please become self aware and environmentally aware and rise to level fit for humanity with help of divine guidance. Do not be critical of people who have proven themselves to be great human beings just because they have made some mistakes along the way because they have shown us the way. They were perfect in their individual given or undertaken tasks if they completed them not otherwise yet they were never free of going through life of trial and errors.
Sir syed ahmed khan, iqbal, jinnah, parwez etc were great people and that can be proven from the works they left behind which stand tall even today. A lot of knowledge is needed to realise what they accomplished. None of them was free of trials and errors and it is foolishness to think human beings are not human beings but Gods. Turning God into a human is as silly as turning a human being into a God. Each is fine in his own place and we will be doing ourselves a great favour by not mixing up things for ourselves and thereby getting confused.
regards and all the best
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
Who denied greatness of Sir Syed and likes of Pervez... but why this metaphorical usage was revealed to them which was not revealed on early scholars of Tafseer e Quran like Ibn e Kaseer and Imams of major Fiqah?
Its not that we are getting confused by mixing things. These very great people had confused things by calling word of God and major concepts like Aakhirat mere a metaphor.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
This thread will be MughalTrolled for sure ...
There are ways to work out which verses are literal and which are not ... It is quite easy really. But ultimately we should study 'aqeedah before picking up translations or trying to do them ourselves.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
This thread will be MughalTrolled for sure ...
There are ways to work out which verses are literal and which are not ... It is quite easy really. But ultimately we should study 'aqeedah before picking up translations or trying to do them ourselves.
Any guidance and rules by scholars on this issue?
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
isn't it the same thought as mentioned for Ashab e Kahaf and Uzair's donkey, who wake up after hundred years.
Birds were slaughtered and their remains were put on hill and when Ibrahim (AS) called them they came to him, proving that Allah is all powerful to make dead alive. Kuffar e Makkah used to astonished with the concept that they will be made alive on day of judgement after they have become part of dust. All these verses were revealed to let people know that day of judgement is a reality when dead will be alive. This thought is not just present in few verses, it is part of 1/3 of Quran.
I am NOT putting a question mark on the judgment day or what will happen then. My question was pertinent to the verse as there is no mention of slaughtering or killing the birds in the verse
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
I am NOT putting a question mark on the judgment day or what will happen then. My question was pertinent to the verse as there is no mention of slaughtering or killing the birds in the verse
what does Arabic 'Juz'an' represent? Put part of them (birds) on each hill, means they have to slaughtered and separated into pieces. If we look at starting of the verse where Ibrahim (AS) asks My Lord! show me how Thou givest life to the dead. The meaning is quite clear, unless someone tries to hide it under metaphor.
Quran is not a recipe book which tells us each and every step and quantity of ingredients, but the flow of meaning in the verse you are referring is very much clear without any doubt IMO.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
one who says that there are only metaphors and moral stories in Quran is not right one who says that everything mentioned in the Quran should be taken literally is not right as well. At many places, metaphors have been used in the holy Quran.
As far as sir syed ahmed is concerned, perhaps he tried bridge the gap between belief and reason at the onset of age of information, reason and logic. He placed contemporary understanding/knowledge as a criteria to interpret Quranic verses. He may be right at some points but his direction of thought was not right.
Do you think that Sir Syed was able to bridge up that gap with his new explanations? and why do you think that belief and reason are two different things.
Don't you think the way Quran was revealed according to circumstances over a period of time (23 years) is itself a proof that there was a reason for revealing a particular verse on a particular time.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
what does Arabic 'Juz'an' represent? Put part of them (birds) on each hill, means they have to slaughtered and separated into pieces. If we look at starting of the verse where Ibrahim (AS) asks My Lord! show me how Thou givest life to the dead. The meaning is quite clear, unless someone tries to hide it under metaphor.
Quran is not a recipe book which tells us each and every step and quantity of ingredients, but the flow of meaning in the verse you are referring is very much clear without any doubt IMO.
Juzan means part and in this case part of the group of birds.
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
Juzan means part and in this case part of the group of birds.
I'm not expert of Arabic language, but if we look at Urdu word 'ajza' derived from this very 'Juz'aa' we know it refers to part and pieces. We never refer to whole things (birds / animals) as Ajzaa.
There are many translation in the link you provided which refer to cutting of birds into pieces.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) : Take four birds, draw them to you, and cut their bodies to pieces. Scatter them over the mountain-tops, then call them back. They will come swiftly to you.
[Al-Muntakhab]"Tie them, kill them, cut them into pieces, then place each piece on a different hill, and call them to you and they shall swiftly take wing, and this should cause you to realise that Allah is indeed Azizun and Hakimun".**
Ali Ünal **"Then take four of the birds (of different kinds), and tame them to yourself to know them fully. Then (cut them into pieces and mix the pieces with each other, and) put on every one of the hills a piece from each, and then summon them, and they will come to you flying.
Besides, how could tamed birds coming to the person who have tamed them could prove the point which was asked by Ibrahim (AS)? This is very common amongst people who tame pigeons. The question was of making dead alive so without cutting into pieces how the question of making dead alive fulfilled?
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
*This thread will be MughalTrolled for sure ... * There are ways to work out which verses are literal and which are not ... It is quite easy really. But ultimately we should study 'aqeedah before picking up translations or trying to do them ourselves.
I am not taking side of anyone nor am i a Mullah basher, but when one Mullah call other Mullah thug and power hungry then opinons of people like Mughal are likely to occur...
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
[QUOTE]
I'm not expert of Arabic language, but if we look at Urdu word 'ajza' derived from this very 'Juz'aa' we know it refers to part and pieces. We never refer to whole things (birds / animals) as Ajzaa.
[/QUOTE]
please refer to verse 15:44. Take a look how juzz has been used here.
"It has seven gates; for every gate there shall be a separate party of them."
or do you think minced meat of the people will pass through those gates??
Re: Quran is full of moral stories and metaphors
Among the translations listed on the link I provided, I liked the following (although there are other good explanations as well)
Shabbir: Abraham wanted to understand the Law of Revival of nations. Allah asked him if he believed that it were possible. Abraham said he believed but that he wanted a practical example to educate his heart and mind. Allah told him to take four birds and train them in a kind manner, and then to leave them far apart on each hilltop. And then call them; they will come in haste. (At one call of Abraham, those birds came flying back to him. This is how mankind can be brought to the Word of Allah with decent training, giving them a new life). Know that this Wisdom comes to you from Allah, the Almighty, the Wise.