Quran is a miracle?...lets prove it

My turn:

miracle enough is that it is the only unchanged, in its original form religious literature to date..in the world today.
ok if thats not enough, its 1400 years old and is speaking of scientific discovers from the year 2000, creation of the nebulas.
ok thats still not good enough to prove it a miracle…then in the quran itself it speaks of those that believe teh quran’s accuracy as a “coincidence”
surat al muzamil Allah almighty says that “we will prove them wrong by 19.” its a retort to those who said Muhammad saw was a poet, not prophet, and the Quran was not a divine relation.

“We will prove them wrong by 19”

19 is yet, just a number…isnt it?

ahmad deedat studied into this:
19 is a number. Math is a science. An absolute science that is unchallengable(2+2=4)
the quran was revealed over a period of 23 years. surats or chapters were no revealed but instead various ayats or verses were revealed and (not as chapter one;verses1-15 revealed then chapter 1 verses 16-42 revealed. NO, it was sometimes from chapter 13 then chapter 2 then chapter 30…etc.(not in right order, just giving example)) So ppl recorded this and memorised it and studied it over 23 years, hence the chapters were completed. Hard to keep up, think about it;30 chaps. 23 years. uncompleted surahs, verses sent variously and sometimes, in relation to situations, etc.

Back to 19. nice odd number. its also got no variables.
But when studied it; all the quran, as a whole, all 30 chapters are further divided into variables of 19. The amount of verses, words, letters, pronounciation signs, etc are all variables of 19. some words such as surat ar rahman has rahman repeated in the number of times…variable of 19.
(Words were not being put in his mouth..was the challenge 23 years before).
So how does an illiterate man, sitting in a nomadic tribe occuppying desert, come up with such mathematical accuracy, proving himself 23 years later? how did he know he would be alive to prove this early revealed verse..(19) (You got to study into his life he was quite preoccupied, obviously if he converted all the arab peninsula and its still thriving today) He was never learnt, did not know how to read or write, it was luxury back then. He raised with tribes himself and he was always stating his words were not his, (no borrowed glory). The mathematical genius was not his either then, infact they only figured this one out recently with the help of computers…the coincedience baffling…I think not.

It is not hard for the creator to be mathematical correct. our universe is running on it..the orbit, gravity, physics, chemistry, its all on math right past the decimal point…

But they didnt know perpendicular bi-sector, E=mc2, etc. in nomad arab land 1400ad…But even the gr2 student knows it now.
The challenge was not for that time but for now, when we have our computers to aid our math. Interestly accurate, this mathematical discovery could be considered a miracle, id prefer to say its but one of the greatness of the Greatest.

It is a mere number 19 that is challenging the coincendence wrong,
Proving that the Quran is revealed 1400 AD(to an tribe raised illiterate) and is coincideing with todays world, and astonshing our so civilised and educated selves, miracle? yeah it is.

(Ill post later in further detail the discoveries of “19” in relation to the verse as discussed above)

Qurans a miracle: want proof? So, thats mine, whats urs?

Rashad Khalifa did some research on this too and his work and personality have their due share of critics.

I personally believe that whether or not there is a mathematical aspect to the Qur'an, the message was to be read and understood. I really don't know how proving some form of numerical code within could help us understand and follow the message better.

Not this number 19 "miracle" again. Its been refuted countless times, showing that only a tiny portion of Rashad Khalifa's claims have any real substance to them.

Iqbal

pakistani abroad bhai

maybe i didnt explain myself.....let me elaborate:

the verse itself is for those who claim that the Quran is a creation of Muhammad saw. however, what is being proven here is not the message of the quran but the source. This verse will not help you understand the message any better however it will confirm the belief that the Quran itself is not constructed by muhammad saw. It is emphasising on the divinity: eg. whats the embryo development got to do with your sajjada.....its the appreciation of the greatness of allah. In the world there are many different sciences, let it be physical, social, astronomical, chemical, mathematical, etc. the quran being a book of the creator, covers them all. And since the only physical proof we have of the creator are his creations, we are further proven his greatness through them.

Again, the verse doesnt have anything to do with the message itself, its reinforcement of the source.

As of recent study, this view, not the researcher and his personality, is agreed upon unanimously because its in black in white, or rather mathematically correct 2+2=4. The verse was revealed at the timeto prove to the nonbelievers that muhammad is not the author. It was retort, if u study the history. So they said it was made up, verse says on the judgement day they will be questioned and proven wrong by 19.

It is not possible for a man of that time to do this calculation, thats the comeback/retort. If he could not do this calculation then he couldnt concoct the book. Every word, verse, letter was planned by Allah adn will remain till the day of judgement ..thats the idea behind the number "19" verse. Not one letter less, not one verse more, otherwise calculations change and verse 19 is no longer challengable. That is the miracle pakistani abroad that we are discussing here. 23 years and muhammad saw kept up with this 19 scheme, (its not possible. verses and surahs were revealed in accordance with time and situation).

Its a miracle to every muslim, but the Quran did not come for only muslims, its a book for all and all can to think,debate,learn, question and reason into. That is why there are so many different studies and aspects covered in the Quran.

We as muslims believe in the quran blindly? but Allah has asked us to think "why?" Allah is the truth and so theres no reason to fear or hide from questions. It only helps us follow the message better.

Re: pakistani abroad bhai

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yari-EH!: *

It is not possible for a man of that time to do this calculation, thats the comeback/retort. If he could not do this calculation then he couldnt concoct the book. Every word, verse, letter was planned by Allah adn will remain till the day of judgement ..thats the idea behind the number "19" verse. Not one letter less, not one verse more, otherwise calculations change and verse 19 is no longer challengable.
[/QUOTE]

An argument that was refuted mathematically over fifteen years ago! Rashad Khalifa's claims are as bogus as his counting is accurate. The few instances where he managed to count the letters and words correctly are not sufficient to prove a weak theory.

Iqbal

who is this Rashid Khalifa guy? I was a kid fifteen years ago i didnt hear it then, i heard it now, not by someone who hand counted the letters but by someone who, just like u and i can do, just punched down on their keyboard!

Relax, it makes sense to me and if it doesnt to you thats ok with me. I found it fascinating because i physically studied into it and its no joke.
if some guy went finger counting it 15 years ago and got the wrong numbers, its no wonder!

Listen, its a verse in the quran and I heard about a view and tried it and it worked so it surprised me and lo and behold i got a urge to share it. Whats the debate?
(mera keyboard hai, ma jo type karo aapko kya?jokes)
Look, its just the miracles of the Quran im interested in not everybodys view on my study, so what science related quranic "miracles" u know post it please, thats the point to this "topic"

Mr Yari, is it an outcome of your personal studies, or you have copied it?

What is the level of your understanding of 7th century Arabi language.....?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yari-EH!: *

I found it fascinating because i physically studied into it and its no joke.
[/quote]

Care to give an example of your study? Perhaps the theory has moved on or been re-invented since Rashid Khalifa's ideas were debunked.

Iqbal

(Im female anand.....female....dont stick Mr. infront of my nick.)

what do you guys think im doing? propagating a brandnew religion and calling myself god? and who is this Rashid guy?\

Here i go repeating myself: i did not paste, its my words, i heard a theory >ahmad deedat (i have no personal attachment to him either) and i just went to a quran cd and broke down the numbers of verses, words, etc. PLEASE DONT MENTION THIS RASHID GUY< now, Im more annoyed of him than all u are. AND anand, who needs to understand 7 century arabic letters count them? what u need to know is how to count!

Again: POINT IS REFERENCES TO MIRACLES OF THE HOLY QURAN

can we quit with this Rashid characters debate..15 yrs later and hes causing more caos than anything.

OK Dear Ms yari-is it an outcome of your personal studies, or you have copied it?

What is the level of your understanding of 7th century Arabi language.....?

Woaaaah Anand.....yooooour nnnnnnooooot reaaaaddddddiiiiingggg....
and hey im not repeating.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yari-EH!: *

Here i go repeating myself: i did not paste, its my words, i heard a theory >ahmad deedat (i have no personal attachment to him either)...
[/quote]

Ahmed Deedat, despite his great efforts in calling to Islam, was lambasted quite strongly for latching on to the no.19 theory. From what i recall, he subsequently retracted his promotion of this theory. Perhaps others have more details on this.

[quote]
and i just went to a quran cd and broke down the numbers of verses, words, etc...
[/quote]

Care to give an example?

Iqbal