Quick war will boost US economy

America has only years of oil supply remaining, Bush is on a high, he needs this war to happen. There are those people who want peace and there are those who want a piece... a pieace of the pie.
Bombing Afghanistan and replacing the Taliban was an oil industry plan before september 11th.

'This whole affair has nothing to do with a threat from Iraq. It has nothing to do with the war against terrorism or with morality.' Instead, says Mowlam, the war will be a 'sleight of hand to protect the West's supply of oil'.

The real reason is oil. No evidence was ever found that linked Iraq with al Qaida or anthrax, and no ‘dossier’ evidence has been presented to substantiate claims that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction

If Iraq or sadam rather poses no danger to the U.S. or its allies, why is President Bush threatening to attack ???

Dai Sista,

If the Afghanistan war was about oil, why did we not send 40,000 troops into the country to completely pacify the country? No pipeline will be built until there is stability throughout the country. There was a guy in Alaska who was recently convicted of taking a shot at the Alaskan pipeline with a hunting rilfe. A spill to 200,000 gallons of oil resulted. There are a lot of highpowered rifles and explosives in Afghanistan. Additionally large parts of the country are geologically unstable, witness some of large earhquakes, and the huge loss of life there. The arguement that Afghanistan was an oil war is ludicrous.

To the US there are benevolent dictators and there are genocidal tyrants. The US generally works with the former and tries to overthrow the latter. Look at the "Axis of Evil" see any problems with that group of countries? How does genocide sound as a reason for removal of Iraq?

A lot more coherent arguement is going to have to be made to argue that Afghanistan/Iraq are economic wars.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Judge,

"A rather higher estimate came in what appears to have been an unguarded comment by Larry Lindsey, head of the White House’s National Economic Council, who in September projected what he called the upper bound of war costs at between 1 and 2 per cent of US gross domestic product, or very roughly $100 billion and $200 billion. "

In light of this do you not think that the US could BUY all of the oil reserves under Iraq for $200 Billion? Doesn't this pretty much shoot a hole in the arguement that this is about oil? If we went to Iraq today and said that we will buy every drop of oil underneath your country, give Saddam a billion or two to go away, and let the UN manage the rest of the fund until a stable democratic government is set up, would that not be better than war? It is sort of the ultimate bribery, but it might work....
[/QUOTE]

It's not just the money OHIO which lies in the interest of the USA. Remember the daisy cutters and other "new weapons" applied in Afghanistan. The stealths in Gulf war, the patriot missiles in Israel, all this is sort of ads and ads is another part of marketing not to forget how much knowlegde upgrade Pentagon does get which sort of military "training" resulting into more powerful and devastating weapons.

I guess the world knows who provided IRAQ the know how for WMDs. Don't we?

it's about installing 'friendly regimes'.. the US is not going to fill barrels and load them on barges to haul the oil away.. they make sure they have a government in place which is no threat to the constant supply of oil at a favorable price plus no blackmailing using the oil advantage.

The installation of one such regime is in progress in Afghanistan only to ensure there are no state roadblocks to a pipeline. That's been the modus operandi since the attempted nationalization of Iranian oil.

If u don't give in to the demands of a superpower, prepare for a change to a regime that will.

Ali, apparently you have not been following the threads with Nadia and I. Overwhelmingly the WMD Iraq has were built with the assistance of EU countries.

Daisy cutters are not new weapons, they were originally designed to create helicopter landing pads in Vietnam.

Soggy, wake me when that pipeline is done in Afghanistan.

As far as "friendly regimes", how about ones that are not outcasts and pariahs? Afghanistan's Taliban had diplomatic relations with exactly two countries, and Saddam is easily convicted of the genocidal slaughter of 100,000 Kurds alone, never mind others that he has tortured, executed emprisoned. The US will indeed have more friendly relations with almost any regime compared to those two.

If I'm not mistaken the US had 'friendly' relations with the Taleban too, they were only transferred to the bad books when they were less than cooperative on the pipeline issue.

Similarly Saddam wasn't always a 'criminal'.. he was coddled by none other than Donald draft-dodger Rumsfeld himself and provided all sorts of help to combat Iran.

I have nothing against changing interests, but let's stop demonizing and making it look like a war of 'good' against 'evil'.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *

Of course no one dares respond to my previous post, so I'll ask it again. For a 100billion, we could buy every drop of oil under Iraq.
[/QUOTE]

Again, before you say something, clear out everything. You're saying for a 100 billion America can buy ever drop of oil under Iraq... but for how long?

Also, you have again ignored my question. You're saying that America wants a war with Iraq for peace and to eliminate their WMD. Ok, fine, but do you actually think america is about to spend more than a trillion dollars and get nothing in return?

I don't believe that a war with Iraq will last very long or be very expensive. I think that the post war rebuilding of Iraq will be difficult, not rebuilding the country, but rebuilding the political infrastructure. The trillion dollar estimate presumes that the US will be the sole protector in Iraq for over a decade, not a likely scenario.

As far as anything in return, if you ask that of the vast majority of people in the US, most would say that we do not expect anything. The best outcome is a reshaped Middle East. Less radical talk, less fund flow to suicide bombers in Palestine. Personally I am wishing for a democratic country that will force reforms in Syria, Saudi, Kuwait and others. The overall hostility level in the Middle East could decline substantially and make a solution to Palestine a little easier.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
If the Afghanistan war was about oil, why did we not send 40,000 troops into the country to completely pacify the country? No pipeline will be built until there is stability throughout the country.
The arguement that Afghanistan was an oil war is ludicrous.
[/QUOTE]

OHIO, Years ago the U.S. began planning to run oil and gas pipelines through the Afghan town of Herat. November 2001 the U.S. bombers attacked that same desert town from the air-reportedly killing a hundred people in a hospital there. There is a connection between these two events.
Nine days after US-backed interim government of Hamid Karzai took office. There was an appointment of an Afghan-born American as special envoy to Afghanistan by President Bush on December 31. He was Zalmay Khalilzad, a former aid to American oil giant Unocal which for years has been pursuing a pipeline project in that region to transport oil and gas from Central Asia to world market. Route through Afghanistan appeared to be best option with the fewest technical obstacles. It is the shortest route to the sea and has favorable terrain for a pipeline. The route through Afghanistan was the one which brings Central Asian oil closest to Asian markets and therefore would be cheapest in terms of transporting the oil.

[QUOTE]
How does genocide sound as a reason for removal of Iraq?
[/QUOTE]

Ohio well hmmmm let see how does genocide sound as reason to remove Israel, to remove America perhaps, When will everyone open there eyes and realise the real tyrants and murderer's..... Its not the removal of Iraq as whole Ohio its Saddam who did such heinous act of killing Kurds in Iraq... If and when the US and UK do begin to attack Iraq its not Saddam that they will be getting its all the innocents more that will die. Anyhow since when is it that morals or ethics has ever stopped US goverment. They will spend ridiculous amounts of money for this war..If its not for oil then what on earth for??

[QUOTE]
A lot more coherent arguement is going to have to be made to argue that Afghanistan/Iraq are economic wars.
[/QUOTE]

  • As stated by a noted American scholar Michael T. Clare in his book 'Resource Wars': A New Landscape of Global Conflict', there is a significant decline in motives for going to wars for territorial or ideological reasons and that all future wars will be fought for control of natural resources. *

Bush has only interest in setting up a puppet government in Iraq to use their resources.

Dai,

1)Wake me when that pipeline is a reality.

  1. Pardon my error, indeed I meant Saddam. What makes you think lot’s of innocents have not died, are not dying and will not die at the hands of Saddam. Over and over we have had this arguement about whether or not the removal of Saddam is a reason enough to injure more civilians as is likely to happen if there is a war with Iraq. Over and over well meaning Muslims have said no war, citing the cost to innocent lives.

In the US we hold our leadership responsible for their actions. If there were any other way of deposing Saddam, I would be for it. but his people cannot vote him out of office. All opposition has been brutally eliminated, and there are two sociopathic sons waiting in the wings. The Baath party is happy as a clam with Saddam, and every coup or assasination attempt has been thwarted. I suspect you are looking at 40 more years of tyranny for the Iraqi people. So the question is, short term suffering and long term gain, see if Saddam changes, or wait it out? The US is pushing the short term pain solution, and we are willing to pay for this, and sacrifice our sons. Now you may see something more sinister, but the US public is not greedily rubbing their hands looking to seize oil fields and buy more SUV’s.

As you said, the US is looking at spending rediculous amounts of money for this war, WHY?

My best explaination is the following, which I have posted here before:

“The diplomats and decisionmakers of the United States believe, habitually and uncritically, that stability abroad is our most important strategic objective. They may insist, with fragile sincerity, that democracy and human rights are our international priorities–although our policymakers do not seem to understand the requirements of the first and refuse to meet the requirements of the second. The United States will go to war over economic threats, as in Desert Storm. At present, we are preoccupied with a crusade against terrorism, which is as worthy as it is difficult. But the consistent, pervasive goal of Washington’s foreign policy is stability. America’s finest values are sacrificed to keep bad governments in place, dysfunctional borders intact, and oppressed human beings well-behaved. In one of the greatest acts of self-betrayal in history, the nation that long was the catalyst of global change and which remains the beneficiary of international upheaval has made stability its diplomatic god.”

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/01winter/peters.htm

It may suprise you to find out that this was published in the US Army War College Quarterly. The call in the above paper reflects the views of a lot of Americans. We should no longer support stability at all costs. We should not support the Shah’s and Saddam’s of the past. We should use our power to spread the seeds of democracy and take actions accordingly. The above thinking is particularly pervasive in the US military who spend a lot of time thinking about what it is that the US really believes in.

For years we made our decisions based on the cold war. This led to supporting the enemy of my enemy. Believe it or not, most Americans truely and deeply believe that their decisions are based on our sense of right and wrong. During the cold war, communism was the greater evil. If you have studied Lenin and Stalin you would find this to be very true…

For the record, I do not believe that Saddam is a threat to America. I do not believe that his WMD are dangerous except to his neighbors. Based on simple right and wrong however, he has committed genocide on the Kurdish people (never mind the “gassing”, he killed a lot more using conventional means). Based on this I believe he should no longer rule.

It may suprise you that the US would spend it’s own money to remove this man, but it does not suprise me at all.

** I would but sadly it’ll be too late by then… **

** Oh that’s rich… You’ve missed the part where…17.7 million pounds of bombs were dropped on the people of Iraq ,mass-murdered at least 200,000 people, using depleted uranium missiles, napalm, cluster-bombs, fuel-air bombs, cruise missiles. That was British/American terrorism and genocide. In those ten years since, at least one million to two million have died because of sanctions,of polluted water and deplted uranium.
Even American vetrans are ill, suffering from Gulf war syndrom (http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/selfhelp.cfm#Veterans)
The real murders are likes of Bush and Blaire … Peeps need to wake up and see that ! You tell me who is the bigger evil here?

“If you have a problem with the leader of a family you do not hit the children. It is the same with Iraq.”

** Your going along the same line as Albright once said …**

*On May 12, 1996, in an interview of Secretary of State Madeleine Albright on CBS’s 60 Minutes, correspondent Leslie Stahl asked her if the death of these 600,000 Iraqi children was “worth it”.
Albright’s reply:
“…we think the price is worth it.”
“It’s really not a number I’m terribly interested in.” *

You ask child in iraq who is living with no parents,suffering with cancer ask thm if it’s short term pain solution !

you maybe talking about your own sons but there are other those who think its not worth loosing lives either side.

** The US public might not be but the government sure is…Ohio you said this in earlier reply : But the Caspian Basin is a much more lucrative source of oil for the future.
Exactly, it just take one good look at a map to see that US needed route through afghansitan to get the oil out … It’s soooo like right there in your face! Like soggy said once theyve implemented a friendly regime the oil flow will start … If they are really sincere in stabilizing mid-east region then they should look to Palestine and Israel,it’d be a start! **

** They dont know anything about Human rights, had they slightest knowledge about human rights, they wouldnt have comitted genocides and left countries in turmoil…**

** Crusade against terrorism ? What you mean is Crusade OF terrorism.We should wake up and see that this whole facade is not about terrorism anymore…

** :hehe: okay wake me up when they see the deceptive ways of there Dearest President Bush… Seems US has become intolerant to other countries **

**Oh good i was hoping you would say exactly this… Have you forgotten that UK and US supplied Saddam with chemical weapons and its with these Chemical weapons that he killed masses of kurd’s with. How on earth can you claim the moral high ground here??
**

Dai sista,

Congratulations, you must have done well in your anti-american rhetoric classes! Do they teach you guys this out of a book? For example is depleted uranium chapter 12, and Nagasaki and Hiroshima chapter 6?

If so we could just save some time and your next post could look like this:

Did you forget about Chapter 4?

And how can you deny Chapter 9?

And Blair and Bush must be held responsible for Chapter 12!

It would speed up your posts enormously!

Just so you don't feel all miffed and feel like all that diatribe above has gone to waste, all of us here on gupshup are well aware of the DU issue, and who and who did not contribute to Iraq's chemical weapons. But the facts have very little to do with things. Undoubtedly you feel deeply about the things you are spewing. Take the time to go back over some of the discussions we have had about specific issues here on Gupshup and you will find a pretty good repository of debates.

For now. the topic is how the US will benefit from a war in Iraq. Frankly other than the idea that a new "puppet" regime will pump more oil, I have heard no other worthy analysis. There was plenty of oil coming out of Iraq before, oil prices were stable and reasonable. The utilization rates for oil drilling rigs has declined in the past few years, and oil prices have stabilized. The Russians are pumping oil like crazy to build their economy, and that makes further need for oil out of the mid east pretty moderate.

So in the interest of getting this thread back on track, please elaborate on how a war will be an economic boon to the US?!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Ali, apparently you have not been following the threads with Nadia and I. Overwhelmingly the WMD Iraq has were built with the assistance of EU countries.

Daisy cutters are not new weapons, they were originally designed to create helicopter landing pads in Vietnam.

[/QUOTE]

Ohio,
You have not read my post carefully enough, If you read it you will see that I have stated that weapons are in the exploring phase and as you said daisys are not a new weapon but in the second practise "phase" they have been used for totally different purposes. Do you agree?
The Know How, DUDE!

Ali,

Yes, the Daisy Cutters were used in a new and different way in Afghanistan. They were used to shock and demoralize the enemy, rather than flattening an area for a landing pad. In rereading your original post, you seemed to imply that the US used these new weapons or tactics for training purposes, or to market new weapons to the arms export market.

I think that you will find that the US’s arms exports are generally limited to a lot of surplus goods, the basics of equiping an army, a few high technology fighters, and a few new destroyers to Taiwan. No one has ever exported a daisy cutter for example. Because the c130 used to deliver weapon is very vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire, the use of a “daisy cutter” would probably be a very limited combat technique.

You can review arms sales here:
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/worldfms.html

I think almost everyone would pass up the “training” opportunities in Afghanistan and Iraq…

Dai sista, well said ! :k:

Q?

Does Afghanistan have a route to the Caspian Sea Oil basin?

Dear Ohioguy:

No one with half a brain needs any classes whatsoever to see the effect of American Foreign Policies on other countries. General American public being an exception. When we criticise American foreign policies, we are not attacking the american public but the government which makes these rules. Its not exactly what you'd call being Anti-American.

Its funny when mostly americans want to know why the muslim world detests thier goverments and when they're told, its rebuffed as simply being brainwashed, or anti-american venom. Then they still can't understand why ppl think theyr're arrogant.

It took a tragic incident as 9/11 for some Americans to come on message boards or the Media to lend an ear to what the muslims had been saying for decades. Is that the only way we can communicate? Sadly, to many its beginning to seem that way.

Back to topic at hand:

[QUOTE]
The Russians are pumping oil like crazy to build their economy, and that makes further need for oil out of the mid east pretty moderate.
[/QUOTE]

Oh so what makes you think America wont pump out like crazy to build there own economy, cuz frankly Saudi is slowly distancing itself from America.... Another reason would be isolating Iran (the second 'Axes of Evil', for future attacks). Who knows where the next step is, but it seems america is slowly conquering most of the mideast region, sole reason may not be oil, but security reasons aswell. This isnt going down too well with the public of these countries that are already against the presence of the american army in mid east. Anger is brewing and one day will erupt!

Biggest Dajjal i tell ya!

After all the oil has been sucked out, American economy will be as lucrative as ever.. No pun intended.

AAG: It does too. check it out on the map, and u'll see it clearly.

Thanks Rehaan.

I would agree that pumping oil like crazy out of Iraq would drive down oil prices. But other than the “war premium” prices of oil are quite reasonable. If there were an overwhelming demand for oil, you would see day rates for oil rigs surge, a huge expansion in exploration activities, and oil rig utilization rate approaching 100%. In other words, for the forseeable future supply and demand are pretty much in balance. OPEC is talking about cutting production further to support prices at this level.

As far as the Caspian basin, read on:

Afghanistan: the pipeline war?

Some commentators have asked if it’s all about oil

By BBC Eurasia Analyst Malcolm Haslett
Some attractively original theories have been going the rounds about the real reasons for the Afghan war.

It is obviously much more, some columnists and political theorists suggest, than a simple effort to stamp out terrorism.

Apart from the popular theory (in some parts of Europe as well as the Middle East) that this is a war on Islam, there is also the theory that it is a war motivated mainly - or even purely - by long-term economic and political goals.

The importance of Central Asian oil and gas has suddenly been noticed.

The valuable deposits of fossil fuels in Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan, previously discussed only by regional experts and international energy companies, are now being mulled over on the opinion pages of popular dailies.

Economic imperatives

Oil is undeniably important to the Americans

Some writers, indeed, have gone further, suggesting that economic considerations provide the main, or at the very least a major, motivation for US and western involvement in Afghanistan.

If one discounts the more extreme and emotional versions of this theory, the argument boils down to this:

Afghanistan has been proposed by more than one western oil company (the US-based Unocal is often mentioned, but it is not the only one) as the best route by which to export the Central Asian republics’ important output of oil and gas
Given the increasing importance of finding and exploiting new sources of fossil fuel, governments like those of the US and the UK are enormously keen to gain influence in the Central Asian region in order to secure those supplies for the West
In order to achieve that, and get those energy supplies moving out of Central Asia, they need to set up a pro-western government in Afghanistan.

Flawed theory

This line of argument falls down on a number of points.

It is undeniably true that the Central Asian republics do have very significant reserves of gas and oil, and that they have been having difficulty in getting them on to the world market on conditions favourable to them.

Until recently Russia had an almost total monopoly of export pipelines, and was demanding a high price, in economic and political terms, for their use.

But it simply is not true that Afghanistan is the main alternative to Russia.

On the contrary, very few western politicians or oil companies have taken Afghanistan seriously as a major export route - for the simple reason that few believe Afghanistan will ever achieve the stability needed to ensure a regular and uninterrupted flow of oil and gas.

There have been exceptions, of course, like Unocal and the Argentine company Bridas.

The main proponents of the Afghan pipeline idea, however, apart from the Taleban regime itself and its backers in Pakistan, was the government of the eccentric Turkmen President Saparmyrat Niyazov, known as “Turkmenbashi”.

Caucasus route

The West, in contrast, and particularly the US, has put almost all its efforts into developing a major new route from the Caspian through Azerbaijan and Georgia to the Black Sea.

This had the potential advantage (from a western point of view) of bypassing Russia and Iran, and breaking their monopoly of influence in the region - allowing the states of the Caucasus (Georgia, Azerbaijan and possibly Armenia) and Central Asia (Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan) to develop a more balanced, independent foreign policy.

In relation to the original topic of the thread, no a war will not boost the US economy. There are many things that have and are going wrong. You would need a war on the scale of a very very large war to gear the US economy for a revival. This war will have its affect on two or three sectors. But it will not in anyway revive the US economy and that is not why Bush wants the war.