Questions for Islam

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Originally posted by Lord Drizzt: *
**I find it that when someone is more soft, quiet, their words have a much greater impact to me than when theyre loud and screaming. Why do things the violent way? Why not humble yourselves, and show others how much you care? *

Muslims are told to be humble, not arrogant or rude.

*If someone has wronged, what would violence do to them? In most cases, vengeance is the only thing that would cross their mind. *

if someone has wronged, is it not societies responsibility to ensure that the same person does not go and do wrong to other people? I am not even talking from a religiosu sense of any religion right now but just a question.. would we tell someoen who rapes children that dude not your fault, its the sin thats bad, you are okay..go on enjoy life?

*So why would you kill people? You just get rid of the person, you don't change them. Doesn't God want them saved? *

Wouldn't god want other innocent people protected from the criminal choices of some individual?

*"easier said than done"
Everything is. *

Indeed it is, but words are mere words. I dont see the turning the other cheek in practice much.

**{The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger} (5:75)
In both Judaism and Christianity, the Messiah is the Savior. In Christianity, the Savior is God. In Islam, the Messiah is a messenger. What's up with that?
[/QUOTE]

"what's up with that"

whats up with what, I dont mean to be rude, but I dont understand your question. Could you please restate what you mean.

messenger is a savior, god's messanger to save humanity by giving humans god's message.

Are'nt there differences between judaism and christianity as well?

22

Lord Drizzt

Maybe the following Qur'aanic ayats should make the position clear from our point of view regarding Jesus:

An-Nisâ' 4:171
O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh)] created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All_Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.]

SurahAl-Mâ'idah 5:17
Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allâh is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary)]. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Who then has the least power against Allâh, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), his mother, and all those who are on the earth together?" And to Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allâh is Able to do all things.

5:72
Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allâh is the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allâh, then Allâh has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode]. And for the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong_doers) there are no helpers.

5:75
The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah *. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat). Look how We make the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).

5:116
And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner_self though I do not know what is in Yours,
truly, You, only You, are the All_Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

5:117
"Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.

(This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

5:118
"If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All_Mighty, the All_Wise]."

Surât Maryam 19:30
"He 'Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;]"

19:31
"And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salât (prayer), and Zakât, as long as I live."

19:32

"And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest.

19:33.

"And Salâm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"

19:34.

Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).

19:35.

It befits not (the Majesty of) Allâh that He should beget a son [this refers to the slander of Christians against Allâh, by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh]. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is].

19:36.

'Iesa (Jesus) said]: "And verily Allâh is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path. (Allâh's Religion of Islâmic Monotheism which He did ordain for all of His Prophets)." [Tafsir At-Tabarî]

19:37.

Then the sects differed * from the meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire)].

There are further Surahs (chapters) and ayats (verses) in the Qur'aan which confirm Jesus's status, but the above should suffice for now. It will be a good idea if you actually read a copy of the Qur'aan similarily to the way some of us have actually purchased and read the Bible.**

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
if someone has wronged, is it not societies responsibility to ensure that the same person does not go and do wrong to other people? I am not even talking from a religiosu sense of any religion right now but just a question.. would we tell someoen who rapes children that dude not your fault, its the sin thats bad, you are okay..go on enjoy life?

[/QUOTE]

In order to ensure that the person does not go on and wrong other people again, explain to them why they should not and why it is unreasonable, not punish them. You know what I mean?

About the messiah issue, nevermind. I see that muslims have a completely different interpretation of what "messiah" means.

Thanks for the ayats sholay. Anyway, I'd disagree with the passage..

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Please do not ridicule other members.

Sentinel.

25

Lord Drizzt

On what basis would you disagree with the ayats.

Do they differ from the Bible or do you think they go against your ideology. Or any other reason for that matter.

Please elaborate.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lord Drizzt: *

In order to ensure that the person does not go on and wrong other people again, explain to them why they should not and why it is unreasonable, not punish them. You know what I mean?

[/QUOTE]

drizzt, i understand what you mean, but what if the person in question does not repent? I am not looking at it from a purely religion based view, but thats the same issue to law enforcement deals with on an ongoing basis..some people may clean up their act, but will everyone?

forget death penalty, but no punishment? if people really just heard you explain why what theya re doign is wrong and then just repent and never do it again we would not have the crime problem that we see.

In theory it will be very good, the best actually that when someone makes a mistake that they are made to understand and they never do it again. In practice, we know that it has not worked.

anyways that becomes more of a society and law enforcement issue at this point than religion.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lord Drizzt: *
In order to ensure that the person does not go on and wrong other people again, explain to them why they should not and why it is unreasonable, not punish them.
[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, Lord Drizzt, even a jail term is punishment.

You surely do not suggest absolutely NO punishment for offenders of Civil law? Even the Almighty God does not accept that and advise that offenders should be punished.

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Islam is kewl…:cool:

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Never mind about punishment, because anything can be a punishment, either physically or mentally. However, I don't agree that we should kill.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
Lord Drizzt

On what basis would you disagree with the ayats.

Do they differ from the Bible or do you think they go against your ideology. Or any other reason for that matter.

Please elaborate.
[/QUOTE]

Alright, then.

For me, God (Or Allah) is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

Now here's a verse (or ayat) saying "They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat)."
That's pretty much saying that Allah cannot eat, thus Allah is not omnipotent. God can do anything. Above everything that God did, he can't eat?

Here's another excerpt: "above having a son."
Jesus Christ is not exactly the Son of God. God did not give birth to Jesus or anything like that, and the relationship is in no way like that of sons and fathers. While Jesus was on Earth, he claimed to be both Son of Man and Son of God. This is because Jesus was both %100 man and %100 God. I can also use the same reasoning I used above on this.

30

drizzt i am no religiosu scholar but does not eat may not mean the same as can not eat. does not need to eat would probably be the best description in my view.

as far as jesus, we believe that is was immaculate conception, we just dont consider him god. but among the highest of prophets, a truly unique individual, and among the best of men ever.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lord Drizzt: *
Now here's a verse (or ayat) saying "They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat)."
That's pretty much saying that Allah cannot eat, thus Allah is not omnipotent. God can do anything. Above everything that God did, he can't eat?
[/quote]

The verse only says "They both used to eat food".. The rest of the stuff in brackets is not the translation of the verse but added commentary.

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[quote]
originally posted by Lord Drizzt
Now here's a verse (or ayat) saying "They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat)."
[/Quote]

can you provide the chapter and verse number.

33

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lord Drizzt: *
For me, God (Or Allah) is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

Now here's a verse (or ayat) saying "They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat)."
That's pretty much saying that Allah cannot eat, thus Allah is not omnipotent. God can do anything. Above everything that God did, he can't eat?

Here's another excerpt: "above having a son."
Jesus Christ is not exactly the Son of God. God did not give birth to Jesus or anything like that, and the relationship is in no way like that of sons and fathers. While Jesus was on Earth, he claimed to be both Son of Man and Son of God. This is because Jesus was both %100 man and %100 God. I can also use the same reasoning I used above on this.
[/QUOTE]

Hi, I haven't been participating in your discussion so I hope you don't mind me jumping in and taking the plunge so to speak.

God indeed is Omnicient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. I think our interpretations of what this entails maybe different. My explanation is probably very confusing but lets see how it goes. For the sake of clarity lets take the example of one person and apply the situation. Now suppose this person is (a) Infinite and (b) All-Powerful and then lets suppose by way of his power he can do and be anything. So because he is All-powerful he turns himself into a "normal human being", i.e. something that is finite. Something that is finite is obviously limited in physicality, limited in time and bound to natural laws and is very dependent upon many other things. Therefore he automatically loses the characteristics of being a Omnicient because of limitations, he doesn't remain Omnipotent because of his dependence and he certainly doesn't remain omnipresent because of his finite nature. So while you operate on the single assumption that because God is All-Powerful and therefore can become anything or anyone He wishes to be (and this line of thinking is more in tune with Greek Mythology, with reference to Zeus) you negate His other Characteristics. I guess it is as someone said more of a case of "He Doesn't" instead of "He Can't".

The quote you have given from the Quran is both about Mary and Jesus and how they could not be deified or deities simply because "they ate food", i.e. they were subject to the normal natural laws governing their being as was every other human being. In other words they were dependent of and limited by these laws. They were NOT omnipotent and omnipresent.

Here's an extract from one of our highly regarded personalities about the Nature of God:

"Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence."
(Imam Ali, First Sermon, Nahjul Balaghah)

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[QUOTE]
can you provide the chapter and verse number.
[/QUOTE]

They're in sholay's post

Well the second one is An-Nisâ' 4:171
The first one is SurahAl-Mâ'idah 5:75

[QUOTE]
I guess it is as someone said more of a case of "He Doesn't" instead of "He Can't".
[/QUOTE]

Who is to judge God on that? Why wouldn't God eat food? Especially if he takes the form of a human?

[QUOTE]

The quote you have given from the Quran is both about Mary and Jesus and how they could not be deified or deities simply because "they ate food", i.e. they were subject to the normal natural laws governing their being as was every other human being. In other words they were dependent of and limited by these laws. They were NOT omnipotent and omnipresent.
[/QUOTE]

If someone eats, you can't say that they are God or they aren't God just like you can't say their hair is black or brown. We all know that brown haired people can eat, and we all know that God can eat. Just because Jesus ate it doesn't mean that he isn't God, because God CAN eat.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lord Drizzt: *

Who is to judge God on that? Why wouldn't God eat food? Especially if he takes the form of a human?. Just because Jesus ate it doesn't mean that he isn't God, because God CAN eat.
[/QUOTE]

but then it does not also mean that jesus was god now does it?

36

Sir Fraudia,

Jesus himself said that he was. "son of man."

Catholics believe that Jesus was born of an immaculate conception.

Myself..I believe that God's spirit was in Jesus.. thus I might argue that he is the son of god...

But I would rather argue that all of us are children of God. I know it.

37

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
but then it does not also mean that jesus was god now does it?
[/QUOTE]

No, thus the consumption of food is irrevelant to the identity of Jesus.

38

Drizzt

agreed, but as PA has already mentioned that the verse itself only says that they both used to eat food..i have quoted him below for a refresher.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

The verse only says "They both used to eat food".. The rest of the stuff in brackets is not the translation of the verse but added commentary.
[/QUOTE]

AAG

Muslims too believe that Jesus peace be upon him was born via immaculate conception, one of the chapters in quran is called suraah maryam and is about Mary.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *

Myself..I believe that God's spirit was in Jesus.. thus I might argue that he is the son of god...

But I would rather argue that all of us are children of God. I know it.
[/QUOTE]

You know too that these phrases are just metaphorical and not actual?

Did not "God create Man in His own image"? Is that literally or not?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lord Drizzt: *

No, thus the consumption of food is irrevelant to the identity of Jesus.
[/QUOTE]

Likewise it is, along with can, can't and doesn't, I believe, irrelevent to the Nature of God.