Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
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I would be very grateful if shias on this forum can answer these questions
http://www.mirhyderali.com/yazehra/images/history1.htm
following in bold are quotes from the above posted link I think it is from a shia friendly website
My questions are(first please go through the quotes)
1)Why was the cultural influences of India used to portray the events of karbala
to “make it more understandable to the people” many would argue, Fine but was it neccesary to distort history by adding such wedding events.Hussain(A.S) and his Companions faced their martyrdom bravely because of their unfliching belief in their cause adding events like these convert Karbala into any common tragedy and trivilizes its Importance in the history of Islam.
2)Why was Hussain(A.S) potrayed as a Indian nawab?was it to justify their own lifestyle(the nawabs)?
3)a nawab losing his son to smallpox is similar to the supreme sacrifice at Karbala How???
4)The Spirit of Karbala can definatly be used as an inspiration to fight against tyranny but are all causes similar to that of Karbala?are all tyrants similar to Yazid?
How is struggle against colonialism similar to the Imam’s fight against the Hypocrites?
5) should these accounts of the events at Karbala be used today?
thankyou

[The marsiay and nohay of Mir Taqi Mir (1722-1810) and Muhammad Rafi Sauda (1713-1780) are similar to those of Ghalib and Dabir in that they perform their panegyrical function for the martyrs of Karbala; but these poets also wrote marsiay and nohay in which the narration of the Karbala tragedy was saturated with cultural and ceremonial imagery of North India. The North Indian Muslim cultural terminology used by Mir and Sauda includes sehra–the veil of flowers that the groom and the bride wear on their wedding day in India and naik–the demand of the groom’s sister for money before allowing her brother to approach his bride
[]In addition to the wedding of Karbala, other parts of the Karbala tragedy were painted with Indian colors. Mir Anis’ (1802-1874) description of the women of the Prophet’s household embarking on the journey to Karbala and the protocol that was followed was quite similar to the protocol followed by the begamat (ladies) of Lucknow

]On the right side of the camp were the relatives of the Imam,
their glowing faces brightened the dark desert of Karbala.
Like beads in a rosary, they were all united.
They anxiously waited for their death.
They would desire neither food nor water,
***their aim was to offer their heads to Allah. ***
The young boys pleaded to be the first martyrs,
and the older ones left this decision up to the Imam.
In the middle of this assembly was the King of the world,
like the sun amidst the stars

**[The foregoing verses create images similar to those associated with the Mughal durbars, or the Nawabs of Avadh sitting in the Diwan-e-Khas (hall of the private audience) while being praised by their loyal friends and advisers. **
[]Marsiya writers would narrate the family’s agony by comparing it to various events of Karbala. When the Navab of Patna, Sayid Ahmad Hussain Khan, lost his sixteen-year old son to smallpox, Mir Anis was asked to write a marsiya in honor of the youth. The marsiya written by Anis opened with a prayer in which the poet asked Allah to spare parents the grief of their children

In the twentieth century, the number of Muslim socio-religious reformers who capitalized on the Indianized version of Karbala to channel their concerns for the society increased. Many twentieth century Urdu marsiay and nohay were given a solid intellectual dimension by the incorporation of issues–the Khilafat movement, India’s independence, and the plight of the Indian Muslims, and so on–into the frame story of Karbala. Among the modern marsiya writers who have appropriated the events surrounding Karbala as the underpinnings of their socio-religious reform ideology are Josh Malihabadi and Vahid Akhtar/
**On the back cover of his recently-published marsiya anthology, for example, is the famous Arabic saying: “Every place is Karbala; every day is Ashura.” By positing a similarity between Hussein’s historic battle and the present day struggle of human kind against renewed forms of Yazidian oppression, **

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

could anyone please answer these questions

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

das reich- i am seriously no expert on the subject but from what i have observed, shias do add MORE to the story than there actually is. blame culture.
in a majalis for example....some molanas (when explaining the tribulations of the imams faced in kerbala) add exaggerated details that I know they have NO WAY of knowing....such as what Bibi Sakeena said to her father when they were alone, what she said in his ears etc etc...all this is done to induce tears for the imams....a ritual, a tradition to keep the sorrow not only alive but visible.
i personally feel that keeping the "ALAMS" in the house, kissing "TABOOTS" (which are pseudo-coffins covered with fine cloth and names of hasan husein) and crying against them and reciting duas....is also borrowed from hindu traditions....
but then again i also dont agree with alot in sunni traditions...in islam in general...
note that again...there are many shias that do not believe in matam, zanjeer zanni, or worshipping taboots and alamms.
and that the shia in iran follow different customs that those in india.....
mostly the shias in pakistan look up to shias in iran.

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

Thank you for your ideas brother

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

^^ im a girl :(

The Photography Thread
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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

My apologies sister…

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

One more question is staging of plays depicting the events of Karbala tolerated amongst the shias of iraq and Iran?
Have the shias religious clerics done anything about the people who draw potraits of Ali(A.S) and Hussain(A.S) I am sure the Imams themselves would have outlawed this practice

Which guppy's Pic you want to see?
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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

I don't think so that it is allowed to draw their potraits, I have never seen one.

Photoshop Tennis II
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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

it is not allowed as far as i know. if some small group of shias engage in such a thing however, they are unknown to me…

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

For shias, portaits/images of Imams are legit. although most south asians look down upon it, for most Iranians its the norm to have such portraits and perhaps even make a living out of selling them. Its more a cultural difference than anything.

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

Brothers/sisters,
three different responses!!! May I add that I am not against commemorating the events of karbala and the sacrifices made by the Hussain(A.S) but it should be done in a way that is befitting his stature.
To be honest I am simply amazed why making images is legit for shias.Afterall Ali(A.S) was the ONLY one who was allowed to accompany the Prophet(PBUH) in the Kaaba to destroy the idols and images(which included not only the Pagan arab gods like Hubel but also images of many Prophets like abraham)

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

das reich....again I have never seen portraits of imams...i dunno if they do it in iran or elsewhere but as far as kissing pieces of cloths, alams, and pseudo coffins is concerned...to me it is a practice that closely resembles idol worship so much so that in majlisses shias wont turn their backs on it...wont let it fall to the floor....menstruating women wont touch it etc etc...

it is again a cultural practice....which holds no basis in islam but which shias do to SHOW their love for the imams.....again not ALL shias kiss them but most do...its anybody's guess as to who holds the imams as most divine or who holds them as just men of understanding and guidance in their hearts....

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

[quote]
My questions are(first please go through the quotes) 1)Why was the cultural influences of India used to portray the events of karbalato "make it more understandable to the people" many would argue, Fine but was it neccesary to distort history by adding such wedding events.Hussain(A.S) and his Companions faced their martyrdom bravely because of their unfliching belief in their cause adding events like these convert Karbala into any common tragedy and trivilizes its Importance in the history of Islam.
[/quote]
true, exaggerating the account trivialises the significance and the message of such events, however, generally speaking, i dont think the arabian culture of wedding/funerals etc. was all too different from indian muslims..Also, there is a wedding account of Hazrat Qasim who was to be wed, but became shaheed, however it is controversial and not many agree with it. But if its included in the account, then it cant really be ignored can it. the cultural references are most likely to make it more understandable, but IMO that doesnt take anything away from the facts.

[quote]
2)Why was Hussain(A.S) potrayed as a Indian nawab?was it to justify their own lifestyle(the nawabs)?
[/quote]
indian nawab? im not sure i know what you mean, however, Imam Hussain (as) was a king for the muslims of his time. He was the Imam and hence the leader, and was fighting against the 'fake king', i.e. yazid. Apart form that, i dont think the the idea was to justify the nawab lifestyle or any of the sort, because if you think about it, the Imam (as) lifestyle was nothing like a nawab.

[quote]
3)a nawab losing his son to smallpox is similar to the supreme sacrifice at Karbala How???
[/quote]
The obvious simliarity would be the emotions of a parent losing his child. Both of Imam Hussain(as) children were killed before his eyes. people whove been through often draw strength from Imam Hussain (as), and difficulty him and his followers went through. At a funeral for example, i have heard relatives of the deceased using poetry that were often recited in muharram. Both events create similiar emotions.

[quote]
4)The Spirit of Karbala can definatly be used as an inspiration to fight against tyranny but are all causes similar to that of Karbala?are all tyrants similar to Yazid?How is struggle against colonialism similar to the Imam's fight against the Hypocrites?
[/quote]
yes. Thats where the saying, 'every day is ashura, every land is kerbala' comes from. Even if the tyrant is our own nafs, its a form of jihad and is applicable in every day and age. That is the essense of message of kerbala, i.e do not submit to oppression, injustice and tyranny. Hence where ever we are we can still oppose it, but not neccesarily through war.

It was this ideal that spurred on the the iranian revolution. On 10th Muharram 1979, Shah imposed a curfew on any religious processions, this led to Ayatullah Khomeini giving a fatwa for all iranians to defy the orders of the curfew. The fatwa brought out men women, elderley and children pouring on to the streets and roof tops of iran. Shah then ordered his army to move in and attack civilians by air, tanks and armed weapons. Thousands of people were killed that day, but eventually the army gave up, and shah left the country under the cover of darkness. He never returned. That is the spirit of karbala.

[quote]
5) should these accounts of the events at Karbala be used today?thankyou
[/quote]
False accounts should not be used at all, however, regarding the poem you quoted, i dont see a prolem with it. Its applicable to that time and place as it is to here and now. IMO theres nowt specifically indian about it.

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

thank you mamoli for that response

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

Good Post MaMooli let me add somthing
The similarity b/w shah and the revolutionaries in Iran is actually much closer to Karbabla than the colonial oppression in India which was mainly of political nature.Shah was trying to stamp out the last vestiges of Islam from Iranian culture and return to the ways of Persian imperialism just as Yazid was trying to hijak the cause of Islam for Arab Nationalism.As far as I know the british never imposed restrictions on worship on the muslims or forced them to give up their religious practices.Even the muharram processions were allowed and the Indian govt. after “independence” forbad them.

Indian nawab is the reference I use because the imagery in Marsiyas potray the customs and manners of Hussain(A.S) as that of a Indian nawab and Lady Zainab as that of a Begam of awadh(refer to link I posted).Obviously as we all know there is no truth in it Hussain(A.S) lived with simplicity and austerity like his Father and maternal Grandfather before him.IMHO Even to use the term Shah or king for Hussain(as) I think is not appropriate as he was the Imam(or rightful leader of the muslims of his time) and these terms denote a worldly title and are synonymous with decadance.Calling Hussain(A.S) a shah will not increase his greatness but will only lend credence to these titles.
So why dont the Indian narraters potray the life of Hussain(as) and his companions as it really was? the only reason I can think of is that the nawabs and shahs themselves despite their unquestionable devotion to Ahl-e-bayt never really followed the practical example of Ali(A.S) as a ruler.I have heard from some apologists that the simplicity of Arabs could not be duplicated in the Indian culture IMHO this is a weak argument and this is exactly the reason Muawiyah used to justify his adoption of Byzantine customs.Islam was a social revolution and it came to reform the habits of other cultures not to assimilate in them.

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

I appreciate your responses…Making images you are right is not common in Indo-pak but only in the middle-east.Regarding the position of Ali(A.S) and the rest of the Imams the devotion shown to them should be withen the limits set by Islam unless we want to ignore the warning given by Ali(A.S) in the peak of eloquence that two kinds of people will deviate from the religion those that show hostility to Ali and those who exaggerate his attributes.

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

true.
there are people who will devote all their time to praising the imams and engaging in matam and zanjeer zanni but who at the same time drink, do not pray five times. lie, cheat on their wives etc etc…basically do not follow the message advocated by the imams that they worship.

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

^
The more appropriate word would be the imams that they "follow" instead of "worship".

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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

To be honest I am surprised at the restraint shown by the posters in this thread(I expected to be branded a "wahabi")
The reason I started this thread was because I think that following these rituals does not do the shias any good or their Imams.I understand that matam was neccesary to keep the spirit of Karbala alive during the dark days of Ummayyad and Abbassid oppression but even the shias did gain power in any states (and they were quite a few instances of that in islamic history) their rulers behaved just like their predecessars.If they had returned to the puritan principles of Islam like UmarII did things would have been quite different.

chalo jaldi jaldi batao
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Re: Questions about Marsiyas/nohas

ofcourse they would have been different…they would not be shias then.

that is where the basic difference lies.
the shias hold the ahle-bait to be the absolute authority to understanding both the prophet and the message of islam whereas the sunnis hold the prophet’s companions as authority. shias dislike certain sahabas due to accounts of these sahabas causing trife and trouble for the ahle-bait and denying them their rights as the prophet’s descendants. whereas sunnis dont like hearing bad-mouthing of their sahabas…both groups fight over “people”…not God or the prophet…but just “people”

Time Pass foR Poetry .......:)