Not to offend you in any manner.
Most of what Christianity, Islam and Jews teach is understandable in terms of ethics.
Concept of God in these religions is either can not be proven nor disproven by current scientific knowledge since God is someone who is not seen.
In case of concepts of gods in hindu religion, they worship trees, cows and monkeys which to my mind is scientifically contradictory.(correct me if I am wrong).
Belief is not what mind possesses, it is what possesses the mind!
can i pretend im a hindu?
ok.
a frined who says i have an ‘attitude’
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
problem, says the idols are there for mere concentration…
To elaborate, question is how to explain the cows, monkeys and trees being gods SCIENTIFICALLY.
I did not question Kalimata and other matas since no one saw them and their existence is not proven or disproven SCIENTIFICALLY.
Step 1 - God is around you, everywhere, in the tree, in the cow, in the monkey, in your own heart. You only know about us worshipping these few things and not everything because these small things probably, on some level, disgust you (or some form of the media that presentst it that way to you). There is much that is worshipped, forming a complete gestalt. Taking only a piece of it is unfair. It's like framing Islam as solely a religion based on militant jihads. The reality is that there is so much more.
Step 2 - The cow sacrifices of itself to feed a man. Man takes the milk of a cow, which the cow could use to feed it's own children, and uses the milk to feed himself. As a show of respect to this "mother", the cow is given "mother" status.
Step 3 - An idol is an icon, a picture, a point of concentration. Hindus do not believe that everyone is at the same stage of spiritual development, and for some people, being able to picture God in some form helps them pray, concentrate, and lead more productive lives. Not all Hindus use idols. Some Hindus believe an idol can be actually be instilled with cosmic power through massive concentration. I haven't seen it, so I don't believe it, but you never know.
Step 4 - You have said that Hinduism doesn't frame itself in terms of ethics. I would disagree, and ask you to do some more research into what exactly Hindus do believe, and maybe why you feel it is simply limited to comic book mythology and maybe backwards ritualism.
Islam is a progression from Judaism and Christianity. There are events that separate these traditions from each other. Hinduism, as old as Judaism, has also gone through similar sorts of rebirths, but the name hasn't changed. What you get is a jumbled mass of beliefs, when it truth, the belief has evolved over time, just as civilization has evolved and progressed over time.
If you want to speak "scientifically", simply ask yourself why the underlying matter of all beings is the same? protons, neutrons, quarks - they make up all the world around you, and any separations of objects you see is simply due to limits of perception. God, if abstracted deeper than even these physical particles, is part and parcel of everyone and everything.
[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited February 01, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by astrosfan:
*Step 1 - God is around you, everywhere, in the tree, in the cow, in the monkey, in your own heart. *
so if i cut down a tree, i am cutting down God? If i kill a fly..I'm killing part of God? Then I shouldnt kill anything...because everything is sacred.
Step 2 - The cow sacrifices of itself to feed a man. Man takes the milk of a cow, which the cow could use to feed it's own children, and uses the milk to feed himself. As a show of respect to this "mother", the cow is given "mother" status.
There are other mammals....
Step 3 - An idol is an icon, a picture, a point of concentration. Hindus do not believe that everyone is at the same stage of spiritual development, and for some people, being able to picture God in some form helps them pray, concentrate, and lead more productive lives. Not all Hindus use idols. Some Hindus believe an idol can be actually be instilled with cosmic power through massive concentration. I haven't seen it, so I don't believe it, but you never know.
so, dont you think that those withouht these means of concentration hold more faith? Faith being the keyword.
**Step 4 - You have said that Hinduism doesn't frame itself in terms of ethics. I would disagree, and ask you to do some more research into what exactly Hindus do believe, and maybe why you feel it is simply limited to comic book mythology and maybe backwards ritualism.
Islam is a progression from Judaism and Christianity. There are events that separate these traditions from each other. Hinduism, as old as Judaism, has also gone through similar sorts of rebirths, but the name hasn't changed. What you get is a jumbled mass of beliefs, when it truth, the belief has evolved over time, just as civilization has evolved and progressed over time.**
I agree with teh concept of progression here.
[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited February 01, 2001).]
[/quote]
**
Some days you are the bug, some you're the windshield**
Astrofan, a comment on you saying Islam is a progression of Judaism and Christ. As if it evolved (influenced by humans) into Islam. Islam is the divine completion Id rather say.
A comment.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by astrosfan:
**X you took words out of my mouth.
Astro; so if god is present is everywhere. it is also inside in every human being. so we should be worshipping ourselves since we are god too.since god is in every animal, why just monkey, elephant and cow are given special status. every animal has god in it. they all should be given status of god.
Excuse me, I don't comprehend that.
**
Step 2 - The cow sacrifices of itself to feed a man. Man takes the milk of a cow, which the cow could use to feed it's own children, and uses the milk to feed himself. As a show of respect to this "mother", the cow is given "mother" status.
--------------------------------------------**
Same is true for many animals and mammals. e.g. camels in middle east do same, pigs all over the world, chickens, lambs, goats etc. etc.
they should be given"mother" status too.
And I don't think cow does any sacrifice. It is the man who raises, feeds and uses cow for its own benefit like any other farm aimal. Cow does not come forward and offer us the milk. I think if she was given an option she would rather feed her cub.**
** Understandable, I agree**
** I did not nean to keep hinduism out of ethical bounds. Sorry. Definitely it has its own ethical principle**
Whether islam evolved from Judaisam and christianity is a different discussion. we need a separate thread for that.
**
Again I would refer to my reply to your step 1.
Don't take it as attack against hinduism otherwise discussion will be destroyed.
Cordially.**
[This message has been edited by analyze it (edited February 01, 2001).]
Whether Islam evolved from Judaism\Christianity is not a discussion. Its a mere fact that Islam is the divine completion, of its predecessors (which also were divulged words, but were corrupted by humans). Islam didn't evolve and surely will not do so. These are the final words of Allah, which need no evolvement nor enhancement.
[quote]
Originally posted by analyze it:
**
In case of concepts of gods in hindu religion, they worship trees, cows and monkeys which to my mind is scientifically contradictory.(correct me if I am wrong).
**
[/quote]
Hinduism or should I say Sanatana Dharma suggests that God is everywhere. The most advanced stage of a spiritual Hindu is to realize that God is everywhere and in everything. This means that to worship a tree or idol would be the same as worshiping god. And to the enlightened Brahman the killing of the cow or the breaking of the idol does not matter. In effect in Hinduism there is a form of worship of one god or the supreme Brahman.
There is a big difference though in the way the common Hindu perceives idol worship. We are told that the idol is not god but that it is a symbol of worshipping god, a point of concentration if you will. On the other hand there are ceremonies, when a idol is brought to a temple, to call god to come and live in it.
It is all very confusing sometimes but you should keep in mind that Hinduism is a very old religion and has many branches whose method of prayer varies widely.
nicely put, aisha.
My understanding of
The Hindu Concept of God
I. The Vedic or Upanishadic concept (also given in Bhagavadh Gita)
' "Ekam evadvitiyam"' - There is only one, no second. That is called BRAHM (please don't confuse it with Brahmins), or ATMAN (Self) (Same as God), Jeeva/Prana (Life Force).
She/He is Pure Consciousness, Pure Bliss, Without Beginning or End, Unchanging, Formless - without any attribute, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Creator of Time, Master of three gunas (natures) - Saatvic (pious), Rajaasic (aggressive) and Tamasic (dull), modes of Prakriti (Nature, Environment, World), through which evolution of the world takes place at His command. She/He is the Primal source of Life whose essence/bliss permeates the universe, Who is beyond Space & Time, but who exists as Self in every living creature.
She/He is beyond comprehension through mind or sensory organs of man/woman. Words miserably fail to explain Her/Him, though she/he can be experienced/realized through meditation, non-attachment to worldly pleasures and sense objects and complete conquest of one's mind, body and senses. In fact Upanishads even try to explaining Her/Him/It by negating everything that is imaginable as 'Not That', 'Not That'.
II Common Man's concept of God with Attributes.
According to Bhagavadh Gita (Chapter 7-St. 16), "Good people come to worship Me for various reasons":
For relief of sufferings, sorrow or difficulties. They are referred as 'Aarthis'.
For acquisition of Wealth, power, fame, position etc.. They are referred as 'Artharthis'.
For acquisition of spiritual knowledge. They are referred as 'Jigyasis'
As seekers of wisdom, without any selfish purpose. They are referred as Scholars.
- The above is interestingly similar to Maslow's 'A Theory of Human Motivation' - A. H. Maslow (1943). Originally Published in Psychological Review, 50, 370-396
People falling in categories 1 to 3 need a personal god (who is separate from self) who has attributes, attributes of Perfect beauty or Absolute Wisdom, or Power, Kindness, Compassion etc.. and Who is competent and willing to help them achieve their aspirations & wishes, including the Hindu belief of true liberation from the cycle of life and re-incarnation (Moksha).
For the needs and comprehension of these people, though God is one, He is assumed/associated with many forms, as Krishna, Rama, Narasimha, Shiva, subhramanya, Durga, Kaali, Ganesha, Ayyappa. the exploits of these gods, their attributes etc.. (Lakshmi as a bestower of Wealth, Saraswathi as a bestower of Knowledge, Ambal representing the all powerful Maya - the power of God) have formed their places in puranas (History), epics and mythological stories. Forms have also been to given to elements of Nature as no inanimate object can function without a Supreme force moving or controlling it. Similar functions of creation, preservation and destruction were allocated to Gods and Demi-gods.
Multiplicity of forms, or Avatars, provided a simple devotee with an option to relate himself to a particular one, that suited her/his temperament, upbringing, environment (Family Tradition) etc.. as 'Ishta Devatha' or 'Kula Deivam'.
In spite of this seemingly polytheistic implementation, the belief is, the core essence is, as mentioned in Bhagavadh Gita, Chapter 4, Sloka 11:
"As people approach me, So I receive them. All Paths, Arjuna, lead to Me."
"The Truth is one, Paths are Many"
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited February 03, 2001).]
Welcome to GUPSHP , kumarakn.
Thanks for posting your "understanding" of hindu God concept.
Question; if one god has assumed different forms viz sawitri, laxmi etc. Why is that those forms fight with each other.
You did not address question about scientific reasoning of worshipping monkeys, elephants , cows and trees.
Belief is not what mind possesses, it is what possesses the mind!
Worshipping Monkeys, Cows and other living images have been motivated by the need to comprehend that abstract version of Hindu god.
Mythological stories, which were used to explain and describe the Phenomenon of God, (to people who couldn't understand, or relate themselves with) used these animals and their images. Some of these stories include fighting among these images, which were mainly aimed towards delivering a moral in the end.
For example: the recent documentation of the fifth taste called "umami" (in addition to sweet, sour, salty and bitter) could never be explained without using a product that was umami. Discovery of this mysterious fifth taste changed our perception of perception itself, though unfortunately it cannot be explained in words as much as experiencing it. Similarly explanations of the abstract concept of Hindu God were pathetically underequipped to get across normal minds. Hence these stories came.
As humans eveolved, the instruments that delivered the moral took the same importance for some people and these stories were mis-intrepreted.
Analyseit, you must understand that Hinduism has been there for 4000 or so years. It has evolved a lot and in some dimensions it no longer resembles what it was when it got created.
All religions undergo this change, which only certifies that man is able to think, explain and modify her/his morals/social values and religious explanations (which is good), as she/he evolves.
That is the reason why there are one zillion forms of Hindu worship and rituals, all of which indirectly attempt to seek the same ultimate entity, God.
The later day religions like Christianity and Islam also undergo this evolution and any denial to this would merely be foolish. Islam is implemented differently in Afghanistan and India, though every muslim actually believes in the same Allah (and the same documentation of His words). Christianity is implemented differently in USA, Vatican and India, though all of them try to seek the same Jesus.
It is the ability of man to think and redefine her/his explanations for the concept of God, that beautifully has chiseled so many different units within each religion, each having its own intrepretation(sometimes even conflicting with one another) but ultimately trying to seek the same. For example, Jehova's witness implements Chritianity differently from Catholics or Protestants or United Methodists or Southern Baptists.
Let me conclude! These stories/explanations are all only the path to God, which is not as important as God. The moral of those Hindu stories (in which Shiva and Parvathi fight), is "to lose one's ego and seek God", should be valued more important than the fact that they fight.
Karthik
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited February 04, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by analyze it:
*To elaborate, question is how to explain the cows, monkeys and trees being gods SCIENTIFICALLY.
*
[/quote]
[quote]
**The Vedic or Upanishadic concept (also given in Bhagavadh Gita)
' "Ekam evadvitiyam"' - There is only one, no second. That is called BRAHM (please don't confuse it with Brahmins), or ATMAN (Self) (Same as God), Jeeva/Prana (Life Force).
She/He is Pure Consciousness, Pure Bliss, Without Beginning or End, Unchanging, Formless - without any attribute, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Creator of Time. She/He is the Primal source of Life whose essence/bliss permeates the universe, Who is beyond Space & Time, but who exists as Self in every living creature.**
[/quote]
Some thoughts, that would explain further..
"Avan thoonilum iruppan, thurumbilum iruppan"
Meaning: "God is in this huge pillar or even in unseeable dust"
Namaskar means, the God in me salutes the God in you.
Literal Meaning: Not two
Essence: It is the same god that is in me, you and everything.
Kumarkn;
Welcome and thank you for your post. It was very informative.
[quote]
Originally posted by X_Communist:
**
so if i cut down a tree, i am cutting down God? If i kill a fly..I'm killing part of God? Then I shouldnt kill anything...because everything is sacred.
**
[/quote]
Permit me to add one more reply to this thread. I would like to quote something I say very frequently,
"In Hinduism, everything (living or non-living) is sacred, but nothing is blasphemous."
[quote]
Originally posted by X_Communist:
**
so if i cut down a tree, i am cutting down God? If i kill a fly..I'm killing part of God? Then I shouldnt kill anything...because everything is sacred.
**
[/quote]
There's a better way of looking at it - death is not an endgame. Try this metaphor - if we assume e=mc^2 to mean that matter is really a form of energy, you know that even when matter is destroyed, the sum total of energy in the world is not lost. Similarly, death does not bring an end to a part of God. The Gita makes this clear - our material bodies are like clothes, and physical death is but a vehicle to change clothes. It does not mean that our Atman dies.
[quote]
Originally posted by X_Communist:
**
There are other mammals....
**
[/quote]
Ahh, but some have been highlighted in certain myths, and so are more prominent. I think it's kinda like why a Muslim prays toward Mecca. Allah is not located solely in Mecca (he is all around us), nor is Mecca inherently the center of Allah's universe; however, it does have significance based on historical events, and is therefore treasured by all Muslims. Similarly, we have a history that treasures these particular animals.
[quote]
Originally posted by X_Communist:
**
so, dont you think that those withouht these means of concentration hold more faith? Faith being the keyword.
**
[/quote]
I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here. Could you please clarify? Is it:
a) those who need idols have more faith
b) those who don't need idols have more faith
?